ON3P SKIS Discussion

[greasyslope]

That makes sense... so if they can bring that tail rocker back I'll probably end up going 184 w/ stiff layup and the "old tail"..
But, if they don't bring back the old tail, then I'm still kinda stuck on the 184 stiff layup/189 dilemma.

You're a fairly big guy that wants to ski aggressively, why not try the 189? Then, if it's too much, you can sell it to me

Try to not overthink it.

My two cents. Best of luck.

[nyskirat]

If people hadn't seen this.

New skis here.

http://www.newschoolers.com/news/rea...Skis-2017-2018

[PowTron]

If people hadn't seen this.

New skis here.

http://www.newschoolers.com/news/rea...Skis-2017-2018

And the new catalog is also up on issu now


https://issuu.com/on3pskis/docs/on3p...17.18_final.hi

[galibier_numero_un]

Since the cat's out of the bag (interesting about the shift in sales cycle), what's the scoop on the 116 Steeple? Baby Goat? Asym?

... Thom

[eras94]

At your size and not-CB, the current 189 (maybe even in a stiff layup) seems like a no brainer. Honestly.

You've got 2" and 40# on me, and I find myself debating the 184 or 189. Fortunately, the K108 still comes in a 186.

Very true... good point.

You're a fairly big guy that wants to ski aggressively, why not try the 189? Then, if it's too much, you can sell it to me

Try to not overthink it.

My two cents. Best of luck.

Thanks for the input and help guys.. overthinking stuff like this is definitely something I am prone too. I am leaning towards keeping it simple and going the 189 route.

Also thinking of picking up the 189 Steeple 108 for my designated touring ski next season to round out the quiver.

[adrenalated]

Since the cat's out of the bag (interesting about the shift in sales cycle), what's the scoop on the 116 Steeple? Baby Goat? Asym?

... Thom

Steeple 116 is a Billy Goat Tour. Identical shape to BG (including asym) with tour layup and modified tail shape for skin clips.

Last I heard they were experimenting with core materials to see if they can get the weight down a bit more while keeping the ski characteristics that they love.

[auvgeek]

Also thinking of picking up the 189 Steeple 108 for my designated touring ski next season to round out the quiver.

I hate to do this in the ON3P thread, but there are other skis I'd pick for a pure touring ski, namely the Blizzard ZeroG 108. Unless you're only planning to tour for powder.

[N1CK.]

hey powtron ... any changes in the Wren line aside from top sheets?

[iggyskier]

hey powtron ... any changes in the Wren line aside from top sheets?

Like previous lines, we're running most everything on 2 year cycles now. Magnus, Kartel line, and Wren line all come back more or less the same - one layup change we are finalizing details on now but that is more of a production/strength change than a performance one.

As stated above - Steeple 116 = BG tour. Steeple 98 is going made-to-order only. We might revisit it again depending on how we feel the performance ends up on the Paulownia/Bamboo hybrid cores we are testing.

Lastly, with new line being released, we will be dropping pricing on the few skis we have left. We waited for popular sizes in popular models to sell out at full price, but everything else will start dropping in price later today. Will be a few days before the sale is blasted out so figured some people here might want to know early.

[Adrgha]

So the C&D only comes in 191 now?

[galibier_numero_un]

Thanks guys! I'm looking at the possibility of a Steeple 116 as a Billy light - not as a dedicated powder touring rig but rather as a do-it-all, inbounds (soft day),/sidecountry/pow-tour ski. I'm not rough on gear, and don't destroy bindings, so a set of Vipecs would work for me. What I loved about last year's Steeples (skied at a demo, only) is that they made intelligent compromises (not giving up much beef). They felt far more robust for example, than my Atomic Automatic 109's, which, while a bit soft, I have no problems running inbounds (I ain't no Lindahl).

The soft day/inbounds part of the equation is for days when I'm short on horsepower, or when side-country is in the cards. Currently, my '15/16 184 BG's are about the limit of what i want to push around, and on off days, I've been running my 182 Praxis GPOs (MAP/Carbon).

I'm becoming a bit risk-averse with my product choices. Knowing and loving my BG's, as well as the family resemblance with the Steeples, and the fact that this is a mature design undergoing minor improvements makes me lean in this direction.

Another thing I've been considering is to put Vipecs on the GPOs and look toward a Kartel as a more playful ski (mounted alpine?). I never thought about the Kartels until recent posts, 'coz I'm a push the front of your boot kind of skier. The GPOs are plenty playful however, and I love the Billy Goat family.

The March demo would normally tell me what I need to know, but darn if the other binding threads aren't telling me that the Attack demos don't have toe height adjustment for WTR boots. I may be limiting my demos to current Steeples (G3 Ions), 'coz I don't want to mangle the soft plastic on my Lange XT-130 Freetours.

Lastly, while I hate polluting one manufacturer's thread with comments about another's, I don't know how better to draw comparisons. It might be a bit redundant to state this, but I'm grateful for the existence of the small guys like ON3P, Praxis, and Down, and hopefully, this isn't a zero sum game.

... Thom

Steeple 116 is a Billy Goat Tour. Identical shape to BG (including asym) with tour layup and modified tail shape for skin clips.

Last I heard they were experimenting with core materials to see if they can get the weight down a bit more while keeping the ski characteristics that they love.

I hate to do this in the ON3P thread, but there are other skis I'd pick for a pure touring ski, namely the Blizzard ZeroG 108. Unless you're only planning to tour for powder.

... As stated above - Steeple 116 = BG tour. Steeple 98 is going made-to-order only. We might revisit it again depending on how we feel the performance ends up on the Paulownia/Bamboo hybrid cores we are testing.

[klauss]

We waited for popular sizes in popular models to sell out at full price, but everything else will start dropping in price later today. Will be a few days before the sale is blasted out so figured some people here might want to know early.

As long as you don't let the juvenile philistines over at newschoolers know about this

[Reformed]

I hate to do this in the ON3P thread, but there are other skis I'd pick for a pure touring ski, namely the Blizzard ZeroG 108. Unless you're only planning to tour for powder.

Sorry for the minor derail, but reviews/impressions of the Steeple 108 are few and far between... auvgeek, I understand the ZG108 stoke and have looked at them as well. What I'm curious about is whether you've skied the Steeple 108? If so, where do you think it lacks compared to the ZG108 other than weight and hardpack carving ability? My DD is a pre-carbon/camber 185 Cochise and I flat out don't like it in anything resembling pow. It's not that it's terrible, it's just much worse than other options. Does the ZG108 really float that much better than the OG Cochise? And while we're at it, anyone considered trying a Wren 108 with the tour layup? That'd be a ZG108 killer (apart from weight, but I don't care about a few hundred grams) wouldn't it? Fuck, I might have just planted an expensive seed in my head.

[sf]

And while we're at it, anyone considered trying a Wren 108 with the tour layup? That'd be a ZG108 killer (apart from weight, but I don't care about a few hundred grams) wouldn't it? Fuck, I might have just planted an expensive seed in my head.

I've considered this for a soft snow / cut up daily driver that also tours reasonably well. Mounted with Kingpins or Vipecs.
Why not Kartels? Mount point, as I tend to not get along with center mounted skis

[Reformed]

Why not Kartels?

For me it'd be the full twin tail and relatively long tail due to the mount. I like how centre-ish mounted skis ski on the way down (current pow ski is a 190 Bibby), but I am starting to strongly dislike how they navigate technical skin tracks.
I wonder how much mixed shite performance the Steeple 108 gives up to the Wren 108 and vice versa for pow? People seem pretty stoked on Wren's pow performance and it's mixed shite performance is fairly well known. Not a lot of data points on the Steeple either way. It has to be better than the Wren in pow and worse in mixed shite, but how much? Interesting options to have for sure!

[johnykim]

I'm still on the fence about some Kartel 108's. For those that have them, do you need to ski a neutral stance or can you still drive the shovel some? maybe I should be looking at the wren 108?

[MHSP1497]

I went with a stiffer K98 to help address potential softness in the tips. Haven't skied them yet (they arrive tomorrow), so I don't yet know how they feel. So, you could always go with a custom K108 with a stiffer layup.

[eras94]

Sorry for the minor derail, but reviews/impressions of the Steeple 108 are few and far between... auvgeek, I understand the ZG108 stoke and have looked at them as well. What I'm curious about is whether you've skied the Steeple 108? If so, where do you think it lacks compared to the ZG108 other than weight and hardpack carving ability? My DD is a pre-carbon/camber 185 Cochise and I flat out don't like it in anything resembling pow. It's not that it's terrible, it's just much worse than other options. Does the ZG108 really float that much better than the OG Cochise? And while we're at it, anyone considered trying a Wren 108 with the tour layup? That'd be a ZG108 killer (apart from weight, but I don't care about a few hundred grams) wouldn't it? Fuck, I might have just planted an expensive seed in my head.

I skied the OG Cochise and my current DD is the camber and carbon version and I found the soft snow/pow performance way different on the newer Cochise. And from what I understand, the ZG108 is more similar to the newer renditions of the Cochise.

[mfa81]

can anybody geek out a bit on the changes in sidecut in the center of the skis, think it's called sidecut blend or something like that!

[N1CK.]

Thanks iggyskier!

[iggyskier]

So the C&D only comes in 191 now?

Yeah but we jokingly going to just start calling them a 189cm so people actually buy them.

We can still build a 181/183 but it would have to be a custom order.

can anybody geek out a bit on the changes in sidecut in the center of the skis, think it's called sidecut blend or something like that!

Don't need to overthink it. It is all about smoothing out the sidecut and increasing edge hold. Original RES has a rough transition between the tip RES and tail radius. Once we got the sidecut skiing how we wanted in soft snow, most of the focus has been on refining the transitions to increase effective edge and hard snow performance. Obviously we added an element this year with the asymmetry (which is primarily in the tail) but we are just as excited about the improved sidecut transitions as we are about the asymmetry.

[SupreChicken]

Iggy, powtron...I'm on the 13/14 191 Billy Goat and I love it. I understand the 16/17 is just as stable at speed, just as easy to pivot in 3D snow and tight spaces, but much improved on firm snow. What are the added benefits of the OTS/asymmetry of the newest version?

[Adrgha]

Yeah but we jokingly going to just start calling them a 189cm so people actually buy them.

We can still build a 181/183 but it would have to be a custom order..

Sweet, thanks. I realise this is an unforgivably, un-TGR thing to say, but I think perhaps 191 sounds like a bit much for my short skinny ass. Debating a pair for next season.

[PowTron]

Sweet, thanks. I realise this is an unforgivably, un-TGR thing to say, but I think perhaps 191 sounds like a bit much for my short skinny ass. Debating a pair for next season.

I will say they are comically easy to ski at 191 and don't ski like any other 191, 189, or other ski we've made before in this category (old 193 CD).

The new OTS and ATT make them even easier to ski in soft snow than the 16/17, too.

There is 74.5cm of rocker in the tip and they are tour layup, so to ski the 181/183 we made and get the perfect feeling of the ski's function you'd need to be fairly lightweight and on the shorter side.

We can still make a 181 but we just had a much larger interest and focus on the 191 for the reason above.

[iggyskier]

Iggy, powtron...I'm on the 13/14 191 Billy Goat and I love it. I understand the 16/17 is just as stable at speed, just as easy to pivot in 3D snow and tight spaces, but much improved on firm snow. What are the added benefits of the OTS/asymmetry of the newest version?

So, all the hardpack improvements are about adjusting the sidecut for increased edge hold - so blending radius underfoot and in the tips and tails. Underfoot = just giving the ski edge hold in a spot it never had it (before last year) due to the transition from a traditional to RES radius. In the tips and tails, the goal is to increase the skis effective edge when the ski is being flexed and drive more. The asymmetry in taper and tip shape are all soft snow oriented.

Only the CD incorporates OTS (Offset Tip Shape) in its shape. Both the CD, Steeple 116 (aka BG Tour), and BG all feature ATT (Asymmetrical Tip Taper). OTS was added to the Cease & Desist so we could increase the amount of asymmetry we designed into the skis while maintaining surface area.

In the BIlly Goat, float is important but so is variable snow performance. The ski's ability to cut through variable snow remains one of the key characteristics we wanted to maintain. As such, we didn't want to drastically change the tip shape and how it runs through variable snow - when pointing it in grabby snow, you don't want anything pulling the ski in one direction or the other. The asymmetry in this design is thus primarily in the tail, less so in the tips. That tails function is simple - to release the tail with greater ease in 3-D snow. The ski is slightly more pintail as well, but the key really is that the uphill ski rolls & pivots with less resistance. The tip asymmetry functions the same way - an easier release when rolling the ski over - but is more mild in its design and as you know skiing the Billy Goat awhile, the ability to push out/release the tail is one of the characteristics that really drives the ski's performance. So from 13/14 to 17/18, you'll noticed increased edge hold & more maneuverability. Float & variable stability are extremely close (newer model will have a bit more tip rocker, bit less tail rocker, and longer effective edge).

With the Cease & Desist, we're less concerned with variable snow performance. They are true powder skis and we design them as such (as you would guess with the rocker profile). In our testing, the wider the ski, the greater the effect of the asymmetry. That is why you don't (yet) see asymmetry on the Kartel 108, Wrenegade 108, Steeple 108, etc. We're prototyping that, but at this time we need a lot more testing before I could definitive state my beliefs on the benefits in an everyday-width. My gut says that the benefits won't be significant, but never say never and we're kicking the tires on it for sure. With the CD, the easier we can get both the tips and tails to pivot, the easier we found the Cease & Desist to ski. Last year it featured asymmetry, but we wanted to go further in both the tip and tail to clear as much surface area on the uphill ski as possible. As we did that, though, we really did start to cut into the ski's overall surface area and float. Because we're a bit more concerned with float and less so with the CD's ability to charge through variable snow, we tweaked the skis design by pushing some of the surface area to the inside edge of the ski (tip only) - allowing us to maintain material to keep the ski above the snow, but make the ski as easy as we can to smear and pivot.

So, that was the design process for both.

Sweet, thanks. I realise this is an unforgivably, un-TGR thing to say, but I think perhaps 191 sounds like a bit much for my short skinny ass. Debating a pair for next season.

There was someone on NS selling a new pair of 183cm if that might work:
http://www.newschoolers.com/forum/th...Salomon--JSKIS