Home Remodel: Do, Don'ts, Advice

[Danno]

"White sheet vinyl with white fibrous backing" is what has asbestos (that's how it's described on the lab report). It was part of a vinyl sheeting triple decker sandwich, so that's the best I got.

And we need to get it up, though I hear you, ice, on leaving it in place if possible. It's just not the right move here, it'd screw things up too much with the remodel plans

[fastfred]

why can't you leave it? just go over top of it with tile, it'll cost you 5-10 thousands dollars to get it removed and you'll have to leave your house for a couple days, most abatment companies are weeks and months out, if your really lucky they'll just rip up the plywood subfloor too which will cost even more money

[Danno]

If it's ten thousand to remove, we'll probably find a way to leave it. But the room will look much much better if we take it out. We're taking down the wall between kitchen and living room and making one great room, and we'd really like all the flooring to be the same. Having one part be tile is possible but far from ideal (and would still require the existing tile to come up, but it might be possible to do that without disturbing the asbestos layer, but it might not).

[Foggy_Goggles]

Dude? Why can't you bring up the other part of the floor? There is almost always a way. "ensuring all finish flooring is at same plane" is remodeling 101. If you have a contractor who says, "it can't be done" get a new contractor....or call the men in Tyvek suits and open up your check book. Your choice.

[Danno]

This discussion is good, because it's certainly good to think of alternatives. We have nice hardwood in the other part, which is quite a bit larger. Sure, we could bring that level up, and then have layers above the sub-floor, I guess there's no reason we couldn't. But would the cost be that much less? Guesstimating, but the overall space is maybe 450 sqft, with the tiled section maybe 140 of that.

No doubt that the contractor could do that, but I'm having a hard time seeing that as the preferable choice. But I'm open to thinking about the idea; I suppose a lot depends on how much the removal costs from the asbestos contractors.

[fastfred]

the bldg dept might call bs on leaving it

you or the contractor can demo 32 sq ft or a trash bags worth of asbestos without breaking the law

$1,000.00 per guy per day for asbestos removal 3 guys x 2-3 days =

[Danno]

the bldg dept might call bs on leaving it

you or the contractor can demo 32 sq ft or a trash bags worth of asbestos without breaking the law

$1,000.00 per guy per day for asbestos removal 3 guys x 2-3 days =

I think you can leave it, don't think the building dept will force us to remove it. But based on my research, I definitely cannot legally let the contractor do the removal, but I can DIY. And I cannot possibly imagine that it would take 3 guys 2-3 days to do this one 10x14 kitchen worth of tile. But maybe.

I will certainly get a quote. And will also get a quote from a flooring company; I need to get quotes for the hardwood if we remove the tile and lace in new wood to existing, so I will also get a quote if we leave as is and lay wood on top.

[fastfred]

I think you can leave it, don't think the building dept will force us to remove it. But based on my research, I definitely cannot legally let the contractor do the removal, but I can DIY. And I cannot possibly imagine that it would take 3 guys 2-3 days to do this one 10x14 kitchen worth of tile. But maybe.

not to dig on you too hard, but that the typical homeowner mentality, everything is so easy, they like come in there and tear it all out in an hour? Sure bro works just like that

set up will take 2 guys 6 hrs at least, seal off the room, negitive air pressure, create a decontaminaiton room. Demo labor will take a day for two guys, it doesn't magically come up off the floor. (the third guy is just a supervisor who doesn't do shit) Another guy gets paid 250-500 bucks just to come in at the end and check the air quality. Tear down will take a 4 hrs for two guys since it has to be done in a way to not let anything out. Then they need to haul it out to the airport pay a shit ton of money to the dump so they can "safely" burry it adds up quick. If they end up tearing the whole floor out they will have to seal out the rooms below too so add in even more money.

1k a day per guy is standard

[Danno]

not to dig on you too hard, but that the typical homeowner mentality, everything is so easy, they like come in there and tear it all out in an hour? Sure bro works just like that

set up will take 2 guys 6 hrs at least, seal off the room, negitive air pressure, create a decontaminaiton room. Demo labor will take a day for two guys, it doesn't magically come up off the floor. (the third guy is just a supervisor who doesn't do shit) Another guy gets paid 250-500 bucks just to come in at the end and check the air quality. Tear down will take a 4 hrs for two guys since it has to be done in a way to not let anything out. Then they need to haul it out to the airport pay a shit ton of money to the dump so they can "safely" burry it adds up quick. If they end up tearing the whole floor out they will have to seal out the rooms below too so add in even more money.

1k a day per guy is standard

Well, I did add the "But maybe". I'm going to get a couple/few quotes, so I'll find out. And I get that it's not a simple job. But it still seems like a small enough job that it won't take 2 guys a day to tear it out. But again, I will get quotes before I decide.

And maybe it will make more sense overall to just build up the entire rest of the floor. At least that will allow us to select exactly what we want, and there won't be any issues lacing in new wood with the old.

[::: :::]

This discussion is good, because it's certainly good to think of alternatives. We have nice hardwood in the other part, which is quite a bit larger. Sure, we could bring that level up, and then have layers above the sub-floor, I guess there's no reason we couldn't. But would the cost be that much less? Guesstimating, but the overall space is maybe 450 sqft, with the tiled section maybe 140 of that.

No doubt that the contractor could do that, but I'm having a hard time seeing that as the preferable choice. But I'm open to thinking about the idea; I suppose a lot depends on how much the removal costs from the asbestos contractors.

I'd also think about your future in the house -- how long do you expect to be there?
(can't remember if you addressed that in here already)

[Danno]

I'd also think about your future in the house -- how long do you expect to be there?
(can't remember if you addressed that in here already)

well, we expect to be here for at least another 15 or so. But which way does that cut?

[old goat]

No matter how good the asbestos removal guys are you and your family will still be breathing it for years to come. There is no safe dose. While removing it now might make it easier to sell the house in 15 years (assuming you haven't all died from lung cancer), leaving it in and covered protects your family now. And removing it yourself would be insane.

[liv2ski]

Old cast iron pipe under the house was just replaced with ABS. Should I request the old pipe be removed, as I am thinking they had planned on leaving it????

[ski-wpk]

I had a whole house done (walls, floors, ceiling insulation, etc. - everything - by a certified contractor in Littleton. $11K for a gutted 1,400 SF house. Other bids $20-25K. He might be cheap too for a small job. Let me know if you want a referral. Also for that small a volume of material you can either DIY or have a licensed disposer who will bag, seal, and put it in a regular old landfill for probably a lot less than full remediation. That's what we're doing for a project next month. I have a contractor there too but haven't gotten bids yet so who knows how cheap exactly...

[Foggy_Goggles]

Hey homowners, throw us contractors a bone and be honest with us.

Quote or Bid - a document you ask for when you are certain you are going to do a job and are looking for best value alternatives.

Free Estimate - what you ask for when you are unsure whether a project will be undertaken and are just looking for a ball park cost.

[iceman]

Old cast iron pipe under the house was just replaced with ABS. Should I request the old pipe be removed, as I am thinking they had planned on leaving it????

Unless it's in the way and assuming it doesn't lead into the house I wouldn't worry about it, it's just iron, in a couple hundred years (in your climate) it'll just be a smear of ferric oxide in the soil. I can't see why you'd spend money on it.

[muted]

No matter how good the asbestos removal guys are you and your family will still be breathing it for years to come. There is no safe dose. While removing it now might make it easier to sell the house in 15 years (assuming you haven't all died from lung cancer), leaving it in and covered protects your family now. And removing it yourself would be insane.

My high school ceiling panels were asbestos. In the morning light you could see fine fibers floating down from them. We threw pens up in them because they would stick and fall down at random times during class. Probably with a small amount of asbestos on them.

Asbestos is bad, mmmkay, but it' doesn't have a 100% kill-rate.

[Pegleg]

Hey homowners, throw us contractors a bone and be honest with us.

Quote or Bid - a document you ask for when you are certain you are going to do a job and are looking for best value alternatives.

Free Estimate - what you ask for when you are unsure whether a project will be undertaken and are just looking for a ball park cost.

Is this really the standard language? I always assumed that a "quote" is a realistic, detailed estimate of what a project as requested would cost. I can't guarantee that I'm actually going to undertake the project because it might turn out that the quote is way over what I had anticipated - as a normal ignorant homeowner, I don't usually know what's involved in a project until I get a quote. Should I be asking for an "estimate" in that case? Obviously I don't want to piss off contractors, but I also need to know a fairly close estimate in order to determine whether the project is feasible.

[RootSkier]

Is this really the standard language? I always assumed that a "quote" is a realistic, detailed estimate of what a project as requested would cost. I can't guarantee that I'm actually going to undertake the project because it might turn out that the quote is way over what I had anticipated - as a normal ignorant homeowner, I don't usually know what's involved in a project until I get a quote. Should I be asking for an "estimate" in that case? Obviously I don't want to piss off contractors, but I also need to know a fairly close estimate in order to determine whether the project is feasible.

This is consistent with what Foggy says: a free estimate will get you into the ballpark and then a quote will get a much more specific number. If you hear $50,000 for a kitchen remodel (based on your stated preferences, size of kitchen, neighborhood, rest of house, etc.) then you are an asshole if you ask for a quote, get $56,342 and then say "well fuck, I can't afford that." By the time you get to serious, detailed estimates/quotes, you should already know whether the scope of work is within your budget. Small numbers within that estimate can always be fiddled with by reducing overall scope, changing materials, electing less expensive appliances/countertops/whatever.

Back to Danno: Spending $10K to remediate a hundred square feet of asbestos is absurd. You'd be better off just tearing out the existing hardwood, bringing that area up to level with the asbestos-containing material, and doing it all new. I am also highly skeptical of the ability of remediation contractors to properly handle the task in an occupied residential dwelling. It's one thing if no one lives there and the place is gutted. Totally different if you are living there. Face it, most of these contractors are not going to be hiring the best and the brightest.

[::: :::]

+1 on the issue of a ballpark estimate vs a quote/bid -- no one's getting paid to produce the quotes. For perspective, unlike the retail product world, none of this is repetitive widget production. It isn't so simple and painless to just give a price. All these projects that homeowners have are all unique and have never been done before, even if they're similar. So, a GC has to actually sit down with a specific scope and work it out. Many times, even when a homeowner knows what they want, GC's are still trying to work off of hand waving and gestures ("all this is going to be painted millwork"); and even something like access to the site may throw off two otherwise identical jobs.

Danno, we have quality remediation contractors in our area. I'm sure you do too. And I suspect a quote won't be $10k for less than 200sf, but let us know what you find. It helps temper the speculation and stereotyping in the thread. I've had demo contractors tell me that just showing up is $1k (with setup, tear down & some quantity of disposal) and after that is just hourly & materials. It might be interesting to hear that data point for your area: what's it cost to just show up for such a job.

[adrenalated]

+1 on the issue of a ballpark estimate vs a quote/bid -- no one's getting paid to produce the quotes. For perspective, unlike the retail product world, none of this is repetitive widget production. It isn't so simple and painless to just give a price. All these projects that homeowners have are all unique and have never been done before, even if they're similar. So, a GC has to actually sit down with a specific scope and work it out. Many times, even when a homeowner knows what they want, GC's are still trying to work off of hand waving and gestures ("all this is going to be painted millwork"); and even something like access to the site may throw off two otherwise identical jobs.

I get the frustration and know it sucks to do work you don't get paid for, and that homeowners generally are a pain.... but to some extent, suck it up. Construction is HARDLY unique in the sense that everything is custom. I work for a fairly high-tech manufacturing company building a lot of one-off industrial equipment and guess what, most of my time is spent doing quotes. I do enough engineering to accurately price things, then send out the quote. Except we don't get the hall pass of doing an "estimate," we're expected to give a fixed price so if I fuck up the estimate we eat the loss. Just like you, we have no idea if the customer is serious or not, what their budget is (or if they even know) and we send out way more quotes than we actually get purchase orders for. You guys have way more latitude in that you can at least send an estimate and yeah you're expected to get close on the final bill, but at least it's flexible. There's a shit ton of industries that work this way, construction isn't special in that way.

[::: :::]

I get the frustration and know it sucks to do work you don't get paid for, and that homeowners generally are a pain.... but to some extent, suck it up. Construction is HARDLY unique in the sense that everything is custom. I work for a fairly high-tech manufacturing company building a lot of one-off industrial equipment and guess what, most of my time is spent doing quotes. I do enough engineering to accurately price things, then send out the quote. Except we don't get the hall pass of doing an "estimate," we're expected to give a fixed price so if I fuck up the estimate we eat the loss. Just like you, we have no idea if the customer is serious or not, what their budget is (or if they even know) and we send out way more quotes than we actually get purchase orders for. You guys have way more latitude in that you can at least send an estimate and yeah you're expected to get close on the final bill, but at least it's flexible. There's a shit ton of industries that work this way, construction isn't special in that way.

Let me be clear: I'm not complaining...it's not even my specific line of work (I qualify as one of the other "shit ton of industries that work this way"...)
I'm just explaining why, not complaining or trying to exclude other industries or trying to be "special". I do a lot of residential work (and much of it remodel), and I meet a lot of people who expect retail models of pricing and don't understand why pricing varies and isn't always hard bid. You can't please everyone, but at least you can explain the situation so that they are better consumers moving forward.

[adrenalated]

I'll agree wholeheartedly that most average people don't understand that not everything can work like retail pricing models do.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I'm not complaining either. Almost every sales process in any industry involves upfront work for which you do not charge that may or may not end up with a sale. The remodeling challenge is that the customer does not know what they want until they know how much it costs and the contractor does not know how much it costs until they know what the customer wants.

All I ask is that we converse and negotiate in good faith. Just like all contractors have to deal with the fact that customers don't trust us because some contractors rip people off customers have to deal with the fact that we think that you want to take all our free design and budgeting work and either do the job yourself or put the scope of work and finish schedule out to bid.

[Nobody Famous]

New topic, making an open kitchen is very cool.

However some older homes or condos cann't accommodate removal of an entire wall because there's either (or both) air supply duct work, or worse one or more plenum return airways in the very wall you want to remove.

Any insights in dealing with rerouting plenum return airways?

In a unit I'm working with there are three return air paths in a wall separating kitchen and a dining room. Two airways are adjacent and at the wall's corner, and one is right in the middle of the wall. Am considering ways to move one (the one in the middle), or all three.