Lake Tahoe 2015/16 - Year of Godzilla Baby Jesus

[WestCoastPDR]

No surprise I ran into Powdork and Hutchski @ the Heav this morning. I had a window from 9-1030 and took it. Set a track from the fire road that goes right under stagecoach lift to the bottom of olympic and then headed home to go back to work. Snow is slow but only hit a few things on the way down which resulted in zero damage to my skis. Also met Mike of Asiago's Pizzeria & Deli. Anyone eaten there yet? Good skiing just kinda pissed that I only had such a small window of time to go out and play. Solid 15-18" on the ground with a few deeper spots @ 8600'

[Nuthon]

88 area was good. Slow snow, no wind deposit, 18-24" on bushes equals fun

[smallies]

Doh, weather "Sabbath couldn't hold Zeppelin's" underwear.

[TahoeJ]

I don't mean to be an ass....but the first two are for the "Squaw Valley" that's in the Central Valley, not Olympic Valley where the shredz happen aka Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows USA USA USA.

Hahahaha... that was from a bookmark from last season and when they redesigned their site it must have screwed things up or I did something weird with it. The others were quick searches and clearly I wasn't paying attention. I'm definitely the JONG of the Day.

Anyway, that's certainly good news.

[Mr. Toad]

About 16" at kirkwood. They're getting pretty agro with the no skinning rule.

[Nuthon]

About 16" at kirkwood. They're getting pretty agro with the no skinning rule.

Aye Mr. Toad. That was me & the Frush passing you in the TC lot. Did you get a talking to by security? Got to get in & get out before they know.

[alfajores]

Were you up with Rob?

[LightRanger]

If anybody feels like sharing their specific experiences with ski areas preventing you from skinning on public land when you're not utilizing their improvements, the invitation remains open to PM me and share your experiences. Specific anecdotes are helpful. Anonymity maintained if requested.

[powdork]

The problem is, wouldn't just parking your car there be construed as utilizing their improvements?

[Nuthon]

The problem is, wouldn't just parking your car there be construed as utilizing their improvements?

Correct. Thats why I have stopped utilizing their parking lots. There are lots of available spots to park at & walk straight into forest service land then onto resort property. I also try to show up early, get it done quick & disappear. Staying out of areas with snowmaking or lift maintenence is also a good idea.

[Mr. Toad]

If anybody feels like sharing their specific experiences with ski areas preventing you from skinning on public land when you're not utilizing their improvements, the invitation remains open to PM me and share your experiences. Specific anecdotes are helpful. Anonymity maintained if requested.

The security guy was pretty cool about it and I just finished skiing some pretty good pow so it was all good but I'm bummed they're actually enforcing this rule. It's never been an issue before. Their website sounds pretty firm about this but do you know otherwise, lightranger? Do we have any recourse? Has this been discussed ad naseum already?

"Skiing or hiking uphill is not allowed at Kirkwood Mountain Resort at any time while Winter Operations are occurring, this includes preparation for the season and operations after the season has concluded

The above stated rules are for your safety and the safety of the employees at the ski resort. Please contact the Ski Patrol with any questions 209.258.7233"

[LightRanger]

Still in information-gathering mode, but (as far as I can tell) the FS has significant leeway to require resorts to allow inbounds skinning. I was hoping to have more information by now, but still waiting on some things. The wheels of bureaucracy churn slowly.

There is some new regulatory language as of April 2014 that actually binds the Forest Service to push the resorts on this, at least if they're to comply with their own policy manual. I've heard indications from some Forest Service staff (LTBMU and Tahoe NF) that they may be willing to push back against the resorts in favor of public access on this issue.

ETA: Resorts are allowed to charge for (plowed) parking. What that would actually mean in practice assuming the FS forced them not to stop skinning on the hill, though, remains to be seen. E.g. would they devote the staff to policing it preseason based on the small handful of folks who're out earning early season turns? Can they charge for something they'd do whether you're there or not and your use is merely incidental? And, I suppose with KW at least, if Vail chooses to be stupid about it, you could do what Nuthon did and park elsewhere--but then not have to hide from staff on the hill.

[somethingclever...]

Day 1.

Apologies if the unnamed skier in this picture has any sort of issue with it but its the only decent one (a stretch maybe) that I got today.

[thefrush]

I had fun today. Knee deep and no rocks.

[TheK12]

If anybody feels like sharing their specific experiences with ski areas preventing you from skinning on public land when you're not utilizing their improvements, the invitation remains open to PM me and share your experiences. Specific anecdotes are helpful. Anonymity maintained if requested.

Excuse the ignorance but given that ski resorts are surrounded by mountains, why do people like skinning-up/hiking-up a resort in the pre-season rather than hit up the backcountry? Is it relatively easier and "safer", at least from an obstacle perspective, to skin up and ski a resort because resort runs have been groomed/culled to be skiable in low snow conditions?

[stormyMonday]

Was anyone brave enough to get out in the Mt. Rose area today?

[LightRanger]

Excuse the ignorance but given that ski resorts are surrounded by mountains, why do people like skinning-up/hiking-up a resort in the pre-season rather than hit up the backcountry? Is it relatively easier and "safer", at least from an obstacle perspective, to skin up and ski a resort because resort runs have been groomed/culled to be skiable in low snow conditions?

Not an ignorant question. The answer is to your second question is yes, but that's not the main reason, IMO. Further, when you're up around treeline, the bigger bowls and such are naturally scree/small talus anyway.

The ski areas are located where they are for a reason. Let's leave out Squaw, because it's largely private land, and look at Sugar Bowl, Alpine, and Kirkwood. Those three areas are all located on largely N-NE facing terrain at high elevation on the Sierra Crest. They occupy some of the best terrain in the Greater Tahoe area for early season skiing (and for skiing, period) because of their elevations, prevailing aspects, and slope angles. There are definitely other places folks can go, but the ski areas happen to be just about the best.

Outside of those areas, what're the other early season locations in the Greater Tahoe area where you can park high enough to not be hiking dirt and ski from high enough elevation that warmer early season storms provide enough snow depth, that have aspects that don't see a lot of sun and are favored by the prevailing wind, and have the right slope angles? I'd say Heavenly sometimes (though not as often as the other resorts mentioned, as far as I know), Carson Pass area, and Tamarack (and Mt. Rose ski area). Maybe a handful of other places, but not many. Exclude the resorts and a lot of the best, most-reliable early season terrain is eliminated.

[SchralphMacchio]

skinning-up/hiking-up a resort in the pre-season rather than hit up the backcountry?

^ I know that it seems like "minor semantics" - but pre/post-season resort skiing IS skiing the backcountry.

I'm only saying this as a PSA, and not directed at you specifically ... Just commenting on word choice to help preserve the meaning of "backcountry" snow conditions.

It's very easy to get complacent in terrain that you've skied 100x before without a problem, and even easier yet when there are a lot of people out on the same day. I've let my guard down before during preseason resort skiing (was out skiing at Alpine with several others from this forum on the day that Annalise passed away at Alpine Meadows in November 2012), and more famously Jamie Pierre let his guard down, at a resort that he knew very well, on a day when exposed terrain was not the right call for the avalanche problem being faced.

Again, not specifically directed at you, and I also recognize that no one would go out of their way to say "undeveloped terrain" as an accurate word choice.

Just being a "culture enforcer" here because the words "sidecountry" or "preseason resort skiing" are no less hazardous than "the backcountry" in the sense of defining uncontrolled snow conditions that could present avalanche problems or other hazards.

[emcee]

Why is it that resorts located on public forest service land have the ability to prevent access? Is there a specific rule or code that they are referencing? I only ask because sometimes I find that institutions use the "this is the way it's always been" precedent argument when it actually has no basis and they have no teeth to enforce.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Why is it that resorts located on public forest service land have the ability to prevent access? Is there a specific rule or code that they are referencing? I only ask because sometimes I find that institutions use the "this is the way it's always been" precedent argument when it actually has no basis and they have no teeth to enforce.

Because the land is leased. Ski areas will claim that anyone accessing their leased area and disrupting operations and/or compromising staff or customer safety is trespassing. The reality is more complicated than that. Sometimes the forest super will back the ski area up.

[LightRanger]

Thanks Schralph. Good reminder.

Why is it that resorts located on public forest service land have the ability to prevent access? Is there a specific rule or code that they are referencing? I only ask because sometimes I find that institutions use the "this is the way it's always been" precedent argument when it actually has no basis and they have no teeth to enforce.

Their leases and operating permits allow them to charge for use of their improvements and prevent access to the extent necessary to operate said improvements and maintain a safe operating environment. There is no code they're referencing, at least when it comes to preseason skinning (and not, say, traditional poaching with a fake lift ticket or something).

You're onto something with the "this is the way it's always" been argument. As TahoeJ noted a hundred posts back, (most of the time) they're just bullshitting and hoping nobody calls them on it.

[powdork]

had to drop the girls off at school this morning so didn't want to get a late start at kirkwood having to deal with the security apparatus.
plus


when we arrived at stagecoach, security told us the best way to park so we would stay out of the bus lane.
we skinned up, passing about 8 heavenly employees. all waved


we took doggy portraits


we skied



it was fun. skiing is fun

[LightRanger]

Nice.

So it's interesting to me that Heavenly and Kirkwood are run by the same corporation, but they have totally different policies and attitudes--even to the point of security assisting with parking to help you stay out of the way. Maybe they're concerned about the terrain at KW sliding onto somebody?

It doesn't matter in terms of whether they should allow access at Kirkwood, but it's curious.

[MTT]

Well done did not know you got that much down there
The Skin Up shot looks mid winter

[powdork]

Getting close to 2" on the stake again so far tonight.