AvaTech SP1

[adrenalated]

This thing is interesting:
http://www.avatech.com/


It's designed like a probe, except it measures slope angle, aspect, GPS location and snowpack structure and records it instantly.



Super expensive and limited availability now, but some interesting technology for sure.

Discuss.

[Johnny Utah]

Been following these guys for a bit, waiting for this thing to launch. Increased (and likely improved) data collection + subscription based networking via their "avanet" product. From a business perspective, I imagine professional adoption will be rapid (albeit limited); curious about consumer/recreational demand

[timmaio]

Yes, probably a good idea for now to limit it to 'Industry Professionals' since it will increase likelyhood that the data is taken correctly and work any bugs, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised in 2 years to see a version for advanced recreation type folks for $4-600 + $100/year subscription?

[Johnny Utah]

Yes, probably a good idea for now to limit it to 'Industry Professionals' since it will increase likelyhood that the data is taken correctly and work any bugs, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised in 2 years to see a version for advanced recreation type folks for $4-600 + $100/year subscription?

Yes. I can also see many interested in a read-only subscription for non-professionals

[Name Redacted]

Heard about this last year. Pretty cool technology. Of course, first year tech always has it's drawbacks so we'll have to wait and see. It would be pretty cool if these were widely used enough where you could look online at a slope you wanted to ski and check the history of the snowpack throughout the season.



There's gotta be some margin of user error that goes into these and I'm sure that offering it to avy pros only will help ensure reliable data for the first few years until they can make a dumbass-proof version for the rest of us to use. It will be interesting to see how this develops. I would imagine that avy sites like CAIC will have data published for free just like they already have under Obs and field reports. Seems like requiring a subscription to access the data would prevent the average BC enthusiast from using it, which would be pretty counterproductive to their cause.

[panchosdad]

My questions would be how much do the density profiles correspond to actual layer weakness, and as those layers gain strength does the density profile change in a similar way?

[Name Redacted]

My questions would be how much do the density profiles correspond to actual layer weakness, and as those layers gain strength does the density profile change in a similar way?

That's exactly what this device is showing you. Look at the second image that Adrenalated posted above. Can you see the weak layer? If you want to investigate further, you can still dig a pit and perform your tests, but it's pretty clear where your failures will be. Unless I misunderstood your question, which is highly likely. It's been while since winter.

[adrenalated]

I think another interesting thing that this device has the potential to help do is take some of the guessing out of the spatial variability game. It's unrealistic to dig pits every 5 feet across an entire slope to confirm/deny the extent of a weak layer's existence across the slope, but it's totally realistic to do a single traverse/ski cut and probe down every 5 feet with this thing.

I can see digging a pit on a safe, representative slope, then using this device to test the slope you actually want to ski and see if the snowpack is in fact similar to your pit location, or completely different.

[Name Redacted]

Maybe you could just javelin in into the middle of a slope and read it with binoculars to see if it's ok to ski.

[adrenalated]

Maybe you could just javelin in into the middle of a slope and read it with binoculars to see if it's ok to ski.

Hah!

I'm really in favor of explosives for recreational users, but somehow I don't think that'll ever take off.

Or buying FOBP an avalauncher.

[Lindahl]

I'm really in favor of explosives for recreational users, but somehow I don't think that'll ever take off.

If it did take off, I could see the market really exploding...

[SiSt]

Yes. I can also see many interested in a read-only subscription for non-professionals

This. I think making it free would be the productive way to both boost users of the data and gain a market share that'll be hard to beat once the inevitable clones show up.

Give it a year or so of productive testing with pros, then write some clever algorithms to interpret the data for novice users, release the free app and dominate your newly made market.

[Trace Hardslab]

Reminds me of the old "Colorado snow pit" some of us used to use : you'd lean on your pole, encountering some mid-pack resistance, then the bottom would fall out and "clink!" into the rocks. "Yep, we're screwed".

Seriously though, this could be useful tech. Will follow for sure. In the end though, electronics will not save us from ourselves.

[skierhs]

Does anyone know if the amount of force applied to the probe to puncture the layers will effect the result? Say someone really pushes it fast in and then someone pushes it slowly through will the results differ at all?

[cat in january]

Saw a presentation on this product last year. I believe last winter was their second winter of field testing the product. Some wicked smart people behind this. As others have said this is designed for professional use, but the release of the data will give a much fuller picture of the snowpack. Hopefully their funding continues and it makes it to market.

I too wondered about how the rate and force applied by the tester impacted the readings. They seem confident the design eliminates that problem.

[PNWbrit]

Does anyone know if the amount of force applied to the probe to puncture the layers will effect the result? Say someone really pushes it fast in and then someone pushes it slowly through will the results differ at all?

They cover this on their website.

[skierhs]

All I can find them talking about is how fast they can take every measurement, nothing about the users force that's applied.

[adrenalated]

You gotta read the FAQ page.

Does it matter how fast I probe?
The SP1 stratigraphy collection is somewhat sensitive to speed, however, we have built in some intelligent speed dependency algorithms to limit the effects. For best results, use a constant speed with a full probe strike within 1-2 seconds. The device will beep once at the beginning of a test and twice at the end to help you probe at the optimal speed.

[LightRanger]

Cool device. Going to be interesting to see the rollout.

[panchosdad]

That's exactly what this device is showing you. Look at the second image that Adrenalated posted above. Can you see the weak layer? If you want to investigate further, you can still dig a pit and perform your tests, but it's pretty clear where your failures will be. Unless I misunderstood your question, which is highly likely. It's been while since winter.

I guess I was trying to distinguish between density, which is what this measures, and shear strength, which I think is ultimately what we're concerned about.

[IceCoast070]

Just saw this on Backcountry Mag. Very cool stuff. I'm not the target market, yet, but I can definitely see how it would be attractive to pros and guys who spend substantial time in the BC. This article was good - http://mitsloan.mit.edu/newsroom/2014-avatech.php

They have access to some serious resources if they got into the MIT accelerator. Seen some very cool tech come out of there. Excited to see how this progresses.

[Name Redacted]

I guess I was trying to distinguish between density, which is what this measures, and shear strength, which I think is ultimately what we're concerned about.

Yeah, AFAIK it won't give shear strength, Good point. So I figure you still have to dig a pit for that. But if you look at just the info that this device gives you, you can at least make an educated guess as to what the shear strength would be and where it would shear. But I'm used to a CO snowpack, where any hard layer over a weak layer will probably not bridge and will almost certainly fail. In a maritime snowpack, YMMV. Probably one of the many reasons that they are initially offering this device to pros.

I'm mostly excited about the increase in data collection from professionals when this thing starts to be widely used. It might take a few years but this thing is definitely going to speed up the data collection process and it'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

[TheDon]

Is anyone from Utah Avalance Center reading this? I'd love to hear more about this at the annual workshop...

[Meadow Skipper]

I guess I was trying to distinguish between density, which is what this measures, and shear strength, which I think is ultimately what we're concerned about.

Yeah, this is the part I'm trying to figure how/if this thing will help.

[powhoy]

I guess I was trying to distinguish between density, which is what this measures, and shear strength, which I think is ultimately what we're concerned about.

Yeah, this is the part I'm trying to figure how/if this thing will help.

Definitely not giving you shear strength, but I don't think that matters. Unless you are carrying around a shear frame you aren't getting shear strength in your pits either. Regardless, modern fracture models are not shear based.

This thing will essentially be just giving hardness profiles. Once you identify a layer of concern in a pit, you will be able to track its presence or absence as you travel to different slopes/elevations/aspects. Or you will notice a different layer that the hardness profile makes look suspect, then you can know that the snow is different and it will be worth digging a pit.

Seems like it has the potential to be super useful, for both professionals now, and recreational users down the line.