Frostbite toes

[ashland]

Hey all,

After a great birthday at Bachelor skiing boot deep, 0 degree snow I went through the standard pains of toe thaw. Because it was so cold I lapsed in unbuckling my boots each run. It has happened numerous times, but this time it lasted 7+ hours until I went to bed. Painful! Yesterday I awoke to giant blister on both big toes.

Needless to say, I didn't ski.

Concerns? Suggestions?


Thanks, John

[cmcrawfo]

Concern: Your susceptibility to cold injuries is just going to increase with each exposure.

Suggestion: New boots and better foot care.

[Gepeto]

Ashland,
What cmcrawfo says is true. Each over exposure will lead to increased susceptibility. Each time you damage your tootsies from cold, you destroy blood vessels and your circulation decreases. Watch the afflicted toes over the next few days to see if they turn dark. There is not much you can do but be nicer to them in the future. Typically, most people realize they have done more damage than they are immediately aware.

The toe box in your boot should never be so tight that you cannot wiggle your toes. The tension or light pressure should be across the bridge of your forefoot and evenly distributed across the top of ofyour instep and not your actual toes. Your skiing ability will plateau until you get away from the need to clamp your toes down for performance.

Jamming your foot in to a too small boot and clamping it down so that you have to unbuckle at the end of every descent is for race heads who are trying to shave milliseconds off their times. Recreational skiing is about enjoyment, not self-mutilation.

I would take your existing boots to a good boot fitter to get the kind of fit I described.

Having been through two separate seasons with black toe and lost toe nails, you can workaround the problem until the end of the season. You have to have your boots punched out around the troubled area, wear a warmer sock and skip the sub-zero days as you will be a lot more sensitive.

An option that I have not tried but I have seen work for others are boot heaters.

[HansJob]

Be cognizant of infection.

[ashland]

Thanks for the input. I'll watch for infection. It seems as if it was a perfect storm the other day, so to speak. Unusually cold, standing in lines, etc. But not something done before.

Actually I love my boots (Nordica Blower) and have put over 250+ days on them. I've had boot work done by a great bootfitter and they are actually comfortable. I typically unbuckle because I cracked the side of my foot two seasons ago (not skiing) and I get a pressure point sometimes.

The other thing at play here is that I now take a weekly injection that may have some affect on circulation. Dammit.

In the range of severity it seems that this is mild frostbite, but do folks typically recover?

[neufox47]

I'm of the opinion that if your boots fit properly, you HAVE to unbuckle them on the lift.

I got Hottronics after getting frost bitten and I love them. Money very well spent. Batteries are on their third season and still go all day.

[Shredhead]

Lot's of old racers use boot heaters, you'll live.

[old goat]

Do not try a warmer sock--warmer sock means tighter fit means less circulation means colder feet. With 250+ days on the boots are you due for new liners? Intuitions are warmer than stock liners, and at least for me the fit means I don't have to crank down the buckles. Like everyone else said, once frostbitten you will always be more cold sensitive--the blood vessels aren't destroyed, but become hyperreactive--they clamp down in the cold. Some people feel that Viagra, etc, helps this kind of problem. I've prescribed many other drugs for hyperreactive blood vessels (Raynaud's syndrome, one cause of which is previous frostbite) but haven't used the Viagra type drugs. None of the other drugs did any good. What about those injections?

[ashland]

Old Goat, thanks for the response. Actually went in to urgent care the other day because the blisters were getting so large it was uncomfortable. They drained them and referred me to an orthopedic next week. Yes, no way I' wearing thicker socks and I've looked into intuitions, maybe I can find a semi-used pair to get me through this season and then I'll get new boots next year, which was my plan. Hmm, Viagra for the toes?? Haven't hear that one before. Regarding the injections, I inject an intermuscular interferon beta (1?), Avonex, once a week. Not sure if there is a relationship. Also, when I went in the other day I had a BP of 142/100. That blew me away. I've never had anything even remotely similar to that. Typically I'm 120/70ish. When I get back to Bend I'm checking my BP again.

[old goat]

check your bp again but don't be too alarmed--pain, fear, traffic--can dramatically increase bp. I sliced my thumb and cut a little nerve--BP in the ER was over 200 systolic. I used to figure an additional 15 points for seeing a surgeon for the first time. The bp that counts is at home, relaxed.

I got to meet some interesting folks because of frostbite--people whose toes would turn colors and sometimes get little ulcers every winter--and this was in Sacramento. Veteran of the Battle of the Bulge, veteran of Chosin Reservoir in the Korean war, Indian veteran of the India-China war in the early 60's in the Himalaya, and while due to severe fungal infection and not frostbite, the same result--survivor of the Bataan Death March. Also a guy who had been a power co lineman in the Sierra, and a guy who worked in a meat locker. And a college runner who soaked her legs in ice water too long.

[PNWbrit]

I'm of the opinion that if your boots fit properly, you HAVE to unbuckle them on the lift.

Interesting....

.....after getting frost bitten

[JayPowHound]

I have dime sized spots at the end of each big toe that have been 'bitten so bad they'll turn black if you look at them wrong...


Sounds like you already have a proper fit and aren't going to be fooled into a thick sock, so hottronics are the answer. If that alone doesn't do the trick, try the combo with an intuition liner. I rock both these days and my (very damaged) tootsies stay toasty on all but the most ridiculous cold days.

[ashland]

Starting to get better. Blisters are down. The outside of one of my big toes is like jello, probably lose a chunk of that. Other big toe is not as bad, but similar. No feeling yet in the end, side or bottom of either. Lots of loose ski right now. Suppose to see a wound care specialist next week, but may not go if I don't feel it's needed. Thanks for input. I think Intuitions are needed!

[Beder]

I got to meet some interesting folks because of frostbite--people whose toes would turn colors and sometimes get little ulcers every winter--and this was in Sacramento. Veteran of the Battle of the Bulge, veteran of Chosin Reservoir in the Korean war, Indian veteran of the India-China war in the early 60's in the Himalaya, and while due to severe fungal infection and not frostbite, the same result--survivor of the Bataan Death March. Also a guy who had been a power co lineman in the Sierra, and a guy who worked in a meat locker. And a college runner who soaked her legs in ice water too long.

Did some of these patients actually have chilblains?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilblains
I grew up playing outdoor hockey in Wisconsin. Used to freeze feet then come in and put them close to the fire. Seems as I did some tissue damage.
Now 40 years later I have to be careful, especially how I warm very cold toes. I can't take direct, sudden heat or I'll get a chilblain.

[skideeppow]

Did this last week, same as op
Treating with warm water and epson salts.
Also Egyptian magic at night.
No pain or discomfort and have been skiing every day.
But it is pretty gross

[TomCrac]

We were out this past Saturday in below zero temps, a few of the kids used these (or something similar) as a quick solution. Peel and stick to the bottom of the sock. They loved them...



Probably not bad to have in the bag.

[hikesalot]

We were out this past Saturday in below zero temps, a few of the kids used these (or something similar) as a quick solution. Peel and stick to the bottom of the sock. They loved them...



Probably not bad to have in the bag.

Got frostbitten toes about 20 years ago.... about 10 years ago the sensitivity got so bad they'd freeze so easily. So I've been wearing the toe warmers in my boots ever since - one on top and one on bottom of said frostbitten toes. Then one on the bottom of the other foot, or that foot feels unreasonably cold.

[skideeppow]

I just bought some heaters. I can not fit toe warmers in my boots, too tight (and i wonder why i got frostbite).
Anyway, hopefully my swelling goes down.

[whyturn]

+1 on intuition. Worth every penny and heaters should not be needed after putting them in.

[ashland]

I just bought some heaters. I can not fit toe warmers in my boots, too tight (and i wonder why i got frostbite).
Anyway, hopefully my swelling goes down.

Same situation. Only I've been skiing this sock/boot combo for some time.


Day 3


Day 7


Day 9


Have this on both big toes, but left doesn't take up as much toe real estate

skiddeeppow>> i'll try your strategy

[skideeppow]

^^Interesting. Mine does not bother me. Did a little uphilling yesterday with no pain or discomfort. Althought foot is swollen, it fits in my langes great.
Good luck.

[ashland]

Update: met with doc today. Next apt Jan 8. Said it's still to early to tell the severity. Couple of dark spots showing up. Keep them warm, no pressure, loose shoes....probably no skiing for a few more weeks.

[skideeppow]

mine looks heinous

[skideeppow]

^^^THATS FUNNY

[stuckathuntermtn]

If you actually got blisters, that's a little more than mild frostbite. I've had mild frostbite in my toes, and redid the tips of a few toes a few times. They now easily get cold (to the touch) and numb, but I had the pressure points in my boots ground out, and have Intuition liners in there, so I may actually be skiing and feeling my toes at the same time for the first time in about 10 years.
You're going to need to be really careful and take warmup breaks to get the blood back in your toes. What will happen is that even on a not very cold day, you may start to get numb cold toes. You will have to learn by feeling when it's time to go warm up, but I promise you, by that time, your toes will actually be cold to the touch and totally numb. If they're still red, you're fine, but if they start going white/grey, you've redone it.
Intuitions are great, and warm. If your boots fit properly, toe warmers won't work because there isn't enough air in there by the toes. They just make a cold uncomfortable lump under your foot.