Video - Tahoe Skier Burial

[Danno]

These dolts have never heard of a scuff search?

They had 2 sets of gear for 5 skiers and you expect them to know what a scuff search is???

I had to turn it off too.

[Soups]

That was painful. I know you need to stay calm, but it's like he was on Zoloft or some shit. It's like he thought had all the time in the world, fucking weird. I started to panic sitting at my desk, not because someone just got caught in an avalanche but because the guy was so nonchalant about it.

[spook]

at first i thought he was actually calm, but when he ditched his gloves i realized he was panicking quietly.

[strawjack]

painful to watch. i have to give them props for posting it though. i am going to show it to my kids as a teaching lesson.

[Eastside]

The fact these buffoons allowed the video to see the light of day may be more of an indication of their complete ignorance. The more I think about that retard that just stood there thinking about god knows what, the more pissed off I get.

[MTT]

I saw 1 mojor misstake from the Mojor player in the Vid, When he gave up his gloves he rendered himself almost completly ineffective as a rescuer. (Good for others to Remember)

The request for the womens Beacon? Did he not have one? OR did he want hers for Searching without giving up his? Thinking she would stay in a safe zone and he would be in a danger area?

I would like to know how many of them had Beacons? Why did he not know where the Shovel handle was located? They were very lucky the guy got his hand out and was not deprived of air.

Alomst seemed like there were personaliy conflicts going on that caused some of the others to stay back and not assist more.

When he was digging and then had an issue with his ungloved hands, Why didn't the other guy standing there tell him to get the fuck out of the way and take over the digging? Why did he give up his gloves?

They did do us a BIG Favor posting the video, they almost got it right, but the misstakes a blairing and something to remember

[Chugachjed]

I saw 1 mojor misstake from the Mojor player in the Vid, When he gave up his gloves he rendered himself almost completly ineffective as a rescuer. (Good for others to Remember)

The request for the womens Beacon? Did he not have one? OR did he want hers for Searching without giving up his? Thinking she would stay in a safe zone and he would be in a danger area?

I would like to know how many of them had Beacons? Why did he not know where the Shovel handle was located? They were very lucky the guy got his hand out and was not deprived of air.

Alomst seemed like there were personaliy conflicts going on that caused some of the others to stay back and not assist more.

When he was digging and then had an issue with his ungloved hands, Why didn't the other guy standing there tell him to get the fuck out of the way and take over the digging? Why did he give up his gloves?

They did do us a BIG Favor posting the video, they almost got it right, but the misstakes a blairing and something to remember

Remind me to never tour with you.

[MTT]

Remind me to never tour with you.

Fair enough.

But if that were you, I would have very quickly come into your general area from the side, put my Beacon in search mode before I saw your hand, I would have whipped out my shovel snapped in the handle and dug your ass out within a few min. (Hopfully without injuring you with the shovel)

I have alot of questions because Could that many people with the ability to hike to that area really be that stupid? It is obvious to me that they were scared shitiless. Just trying to figure out some of the inital desicions made. Is there any good reason?

Full disclosure,
Two days ago I went to a little hill 2 miles from my home and skined up a ridge line and skied back down (By myself)
Thats it for now, just a little excersize.
I am actulay Gripped scared to go into any real Backcountry in this area right now. I do not want to die in an avalance.
I see what the snow pack is, and see all the people stomping around on every ridge everywhere, and I just dont see the advantage in it.
Scared shitless of getting burried.
I will wait for a nice stable Spring corn cycle before you catch me out there this year

[bodywhomper]

Here ya go....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWIuX014DSk

Oh and from the video comment:

Rule # 1 rule when using a transceiver is to turn off ALL electronic devices (besides your transceiver itself). This is not GoPro specific - any POV camera will interfere with a transceiver set to search mode.

The good news is electronics typically only interfere with receiving. The victim's will be set to transmit and a GoPro or other similar gear won't interfere with it. Nothing new here, but it's good to warn people... some don't read the instructions that came with their avalanche beacon ;0)

thanks for that link. I had seen the threads but never read up, just assuming that there was an interference issue.

for my own understanding, this can be a similar issue for smartphones, cell phones, and ipods (and patroller radios) for ones that are searching; especially if these devices are near the receiving beacon, like in a jacket pocket, bib pocket, pants pocket, or a harness, right? my touring partners and i turn our phones off when touring.

How does patrol deal with the radio/beacon interference? do they just turn off their radios if they are doing a beacon search?

[bodywhomper]

i have no idea about the group's objectives, but the wide ridge typically used to ascend echo peak is a safe and reasonably fun way to descend. it would have been a mellow but powdery descent on that day.

[icelanticskier]

i have no idea about the group's objectives, but the wide ridge typically used to ascend echo peak is a safe and reasonably fun way to descend. it would have been a mellow but powdery descent on that day.

yup, all the other bullshit aside, he skied it wrong.

rog

[Arty50]

Here ya go....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWIuX014DSk

Oh and from the video comment:

Rule # 1 rule when using a transceiver is to turn off ALL electronic devices (besides your transceiver itself). This is not GoPro specific - any POV camera will interfere with a transceiver set to search mode.

The good news is electronics typically only interfere with receiving. The victim's will be set to transmit and a GoPro or other similar gear won't interfere with it. Nothing new here, but it's good to warn people... some don't read the instructions that came with their avalanche beacon ;0)

Why does everyone keep mentioning the fact that other electronic devices won't interfere with a transmitting beacon? It's a dangerous point to make. Who cares if the signal is still getting out properly if the receiving beacon looking for said signal will be interfered with once it gets close enough to said signal and the interfering device? The bottom line is that everyone in the group needs to turn off all electronic devices other than their beacons.

[Chugachjed]

Fair enough.

But if that were you, I would have very quickly come into your general area from the side, put my Beacon in search mode before I saw your hand, I would have whipped out my shovel snapped in the handle and dug your ass out within a few min. (Hopfully without injuring you with the shovel)

I have alot of questions because Could that many people with the ability to hike to that area really be that stupid? It is obvious to me that they were scared shitiless. Just trying to figure out some of the inital desicions made. Is there any good reason?

Full disclosure,
Two days ago I went to a little hill 2 miles from my home and skined up a ridge line and skied back down (By myself)
Thats it for now, just a little excersize.
I am actulay Gripped scared to go into any real Backcountry in this area right now. I do not want to die in an avalance.
I see what the snow pack is, and see all the people stomping around on every ridge everywhere, and I just dont see the advantage in it.
Scared shitless of getting burried.
I will wait for a nice stable Spring corn cycle before you catch me out there this year

That was a little harsh on my part, I saw many major mistakes made in that video. Frankly the least offensive was seeing the guy dig without gloves, fuck your cold hands if you're digging out your buddy they'll thaw.

[MTT]

That was a little harsh on my part, I saw many major mistakes made in that video. Frankly the least offensive was seeing the guy dig without gloves, fuck your cold hands if you're digging out your buddy they'll thaw.

Yea, And maybe if they guy buried were in greater distress Adrenaline would have pushed him on. But he quickly was putting himself in a position to not only be ineffective but also another victim to be dealt with.

Yea there was allot there

[Chugachjed]

Yea, And maybe if they guy buried were in greater distress Adrenaline would have pushed him on. But he quickly was putting himself in a position to not only be ineffective but also another victim to be dealt with.

Yea there was allot there

While true, victims of trauma are often not aware of the extent of their injuries. Not being outwardly distressed isn't reason not to quickly extricate somebody.

[MTT]

While true, victims of trauma are often not aware of the extent of their injuries. Not being outwardly distressed isn't reason not to quickly extricate somebody.

Yes
also was I the only one who was shocked at far down he skied before entering the slide path? Did he have a land mark to know that they guy was for sure below where he entered the slide path?

He cut in and there and the hand was right in front of him. (Dumb Luck)? What if he had been 10 yards below him? Could he even have climbed up that slope to search?

Thats more a question for me, If I thought I was searching for a full burial I am pretty sure I would have come into the slide path well above where I thought he might be. (Because getting down hill from the victim would Suck allot)

Or am I wrong on that?

[jfost]

...fuck your cold hands if you're digging out your buddy they'll thaw.

I agree, but your dexterity and ultimate digging/fiddling capability are quickly diminished without gloves - like to the point of becoming incapacitated IMHO. They were lucky that the debris wasn't too consolidated/set up or they really would have needed that shovel handle.

x2 on what MTT said, if he didn't know where to start - why go so far down the slide path. It is possible he entered the slide path perpendicular to the last known sighting, but as you mentioned - that's cutting it a little close. From the depth and "softness" of the snow where they were digging, it would have been a hell of a time trying to get back uphill to find a signal, even 10-20 yards uphill could have been tricky.

[bodywhomper]

Why does everyone keep mentioning the fact that other electronic devices won't interfere with a transmitting beacon? It's a dangerous point to make. Who cares if the signal is still getting out properly if the receiving beacon looking for said signal will be interfered with once it gets close enough to said signal and the interfering device? The bottom line is that everyone in the group needs to turn off all electronic devices other than their beacons.

So are you basically advocating that all electronic devices (cameras, phones, ipods, radios, etc.) should be off when travelling in avalanche terrain, with the exception of beacons, right? do you follow this for resort and side country if you and your friends are travelling with beacons?

personally, this is how i roll, partially out of conservative safety and partially for simplicity. but i have no idea about the extent of inference created by my gear or that of others that i travel with.

also, the man in black (the one that didn't do any digging) saw the hand sticking out of the snow while the 'hero' was fuzting around in the group with the backpack/shovel/gloves/beacon. you can hear this if you listen closely to the audio.

[Chugachjed]

I agree, but your dexterity and ultimate digging/fiddling capability are quickly diminished without gloves - like to the point of becoming incapacitated IMHO. They were lucky that the debris wasn't too consolidated/set up or they really would have needed that shovel handle.

I guess I only know my own body, I dig without gloves a lot, in Alaska (colder than California? Probably). That was the easiest digging debris I've ever seen digging sans handle is a non starter in more significant debris without doubt.

[Theo-san]

^ I'm with you on the gloves - if you're really digging (and this guy wasn't) you're going to be running warm unless you're someone with serious circulation problems (in which case you wouldn't be without gloves anyway). The hand on the metal may get cold but someones life is on the line, I think you can deal with it.

There were so many things wrong with this video it's hard to know where to start... hopefully it's a good learning tool for anyone who watches.

[spook]

i must have fragile hands. it would be one thing to dig him out when his airway is open and he's the near the surface like he was. i wouldn't want to have to dig very long without gloves if somebody was buried deep. at some point fairly soon my hands would become worthless.

[LightRanger]

So are you basically advocating that all electronic devices (cameras, phones, ipods, radios, etc.) should be off when travelling in avalanche terrain, with the exception of beacons, right? do you follow this for resort and side country if you and your friends are travelling with beacons?

personally, this is how i roll, partially out of conservative safety and partially for simplicity. but i have no idea about the extent of inference created by my gear or that of others that i travel with.

also, the man in black (the one that didn't do any digging) saw the hand sticking out of the snow while the 'hero' was fuzting around in the group with the backpack/shovel/gloves/beacon. you can hear this if you listen closely to the audio.

I second the thanks for the link. I stand corrected.

I almost always tour with my phone turned off in my pack and don't tour with a GoPro, but obviously good info either way.

I guess it doesn't matter until you're in search mode (Arty's comment notwithstanding, the other device still has to be quite close to interfere with the receiving beacon--i.e. closer than necessary to localize a victim with a probe strike or potentially without), but then you have to remember to turn whatever device(s) off when you're trying not to panic in a shitty situation.

[SchralphMacchio]

Glad the guy is OK. If I was him, first thing I would've done afterwards is kick every one of them in the balls/cunt.

Why? It was his decision to drop in on that line, and his decision to tour with that group. Group dynamics aside, it's personal responsibility to protect yourself from a situation in which you are exposed well beyond what your trust can cover. Just as much his fault as his partners, if he didn't know how poorly prepared or trained they were - I doubt they would have lied to him if he asked specific questions about AIARE training, practice, experience, or what gear they were each carrying.

I guess I only know my own body, I dig without gloves a lot, in Alaska

Well, in your case, the plastic handle has a significantly lower thermal conductivity than the aluminum blade (3 orders of magnitude difference in k value), and a handle also places your hand a good foot above the snow, if not more in an extending handle shovel - so normally shoveling without gloves isn't as big of a deal. This particular day/weather pattern was reasonably cold by Tahoe standards and the aluminum blade directly conducts the heat from your hands into the snow. Even your high-heat hands might have gotten to screaming barfies hurting with that shoveling "technique."

In this case, I would infer that panic had settled in, from seeing the exchange of, "there's a probe in there, do you know where the probe is?" and the disinterested response of "not really," while flicking the gloves away. Taking two seconds to look for the handle that was in the pack's handle sleeve was not obvious to this person, thanks to the (apparent) lack of practice.

I've taken a few newbs out touring, but I think what I want to do as part of the morning orientation, now that I have seen this incident, is have everyone practice retrieving gear from their packs and assembling shovels and probes while keeping gear neat and unscattered and putting the packs back on. I've learned that it's can be dangerous to take a pack off during rescue for a lot of reasons - best to put it back on once you've retrieved what you need, or at the very least the second you start to move.

Yes
also was I the only one who was shocked at far down he skied before entering the slide path? Did he have a land mark to know that they guy was for sure below where he entered the slide path?

"Zack" (aka casual standing there guy) pointed out, with his pole, after the transceiver/pack exchange "come on, you can see him, you don't need your beacon."

for my own understanding, this can be a similar issue for smartphones, cell phones, and ipods (and patroller radios) for ones that are searching; especially if these devices are near the receiving beacon

Good discussion point about helmet cam causing a potential issue during search.

This topic was discussed fairly well in one of Jonathan S's threads in Tech Talk a couple back, probably the same one in which The Suit or someone else complained about his PIEPS DSP rebooting when used near his iPod. Disclaimer: I'm not an RF engineer, but I work with them.

My understanding is that the primary issue is not so much RF interference from communicating devices, as the devices work in different frequencies and wave types. My understanding is that the problem is spurious magnetic wave emissions caused by high-frequency power supplies and DSPs in devices with processors - iPods, GPS, video camera. The power and processing frequencies can induct an alternating magnetic field in the actual traces on the product's circuit board and cause "near field" magnetic wave signals that are picked up by the DSPs of avalanche transceivers. When in receive mode, the DSP that is trying to process signals from multiple antennas and determine field flux direction can get really confused by these spurious emissions. Thankfully, the emissions tend to fall off really quickly by distance, but I don't know what the threshold is for FCC Part 15 and how avalanche transceiver DSPs might be designed around it. My current philosophy is that as long as the electronics are not placed side-by-side (typically place the phone in the pack, left on if doing roadside tours and switched off for deeper tours), a problem is not likely to occur. I'm also not a tri-clops kind of guy - you guys know that my TRs are all still images with no vid (time to start busting the partners' balls about that). However, "not likely" to cause a problem is not the same as "foolproof," and little things fucking you up during a search can really throw you off your game, so the extra precaution does have its merits.

I also lean to the philosophy of using simpler DSP beacons - the ones with the most sensitivity (Ortovox S/3+, PIEPS) are also more sensitive to spurious emissions. (The video showed that the Tracker did not respond nearly as sensitively as the Ortovox did).



Anyways, criticisms aside, this video is useful as an instructional tool. Practice is a good thing.

[MTT]

I'm also not a tri-clops kind of guy - you guys know that my TRs are all still images with no vid

The official jab at the Gopro crowd is Teletubbies, they all look like a Teletubby with that thing bolted to the helmet.

How long before 50% of the people at a resort look like a skittle colored Teletubby.

[Hott Butt Mud]

Insane video. Are these people Mormons? I didn't hear one single swear word?!

I would have at least said an 'oh shit' or 'fuck' somewhere.