Alpine Meadows patrolle buried, critically injured during control work

[Italiaski]

Kidwoo,
Your backseat driving is a little nauseous. Your reference to Mt. Rose control procedures is way unfounded and infers that the weather and underlying snow stratigraphy are not factors in decision making in hazard mitigation procedures at Class A avalanche areas. I believe you last had a pass at Rose in 05/06 and not sure how often you buy tickets.

"All knowledge about reality begins with experience and terminates in it," Albert Einstein

[MTT]

Kidwoo,
Your backseat driving is a little nauseous. Your reference to Mt. Rose control procedures is way unfounded and infers that the weather and underlying snow stratigraphy are not factors in decision making in hazard mitigation procedures at Class A avalanche areas. I believe you last had a pass at Rose in 05/06 and not sure how often you buy tickets.

"All knowledge about reality begins with experience and terminates in it," Albert Einstein

That was a bit of a rough comeback. Kidwoo does spend time in Backcountry. And he does like Da Chutes at the Rose.
Mt. Rose has had a Patroller seriously injured while doing control work in the Chutes. (I suspect they learned and made adjustments)
I don't see bashing on the patrol, seems that opening and keeping open the terrain that today’s customer demands is a (Learning experience) for everyone.
And the point of this thread, Very sorry that a good man died doing his job so we can all have fun.
My hope is that lessons have been learned and patrol continues to both open the GNAR so we can slay the pow, and they keep themselves and us safe while they do it.

[old goat]

Any of you guys work patrol at alpine-ish mountains where bombing/cutting is a given for any real storm?

This 'safe zone' thing is really bugging me. It's exactly what killed a patroller at squaw two years ago, one drainage over from alpine meadows. I understand the typical one to three feet overnight kind of deal with a really well understood and good snowpack. But extraordinary circumstances call for not exactly ordinary responses. At a certain point, don't you have to deem the only safe zones as those on ridges? I've watched these guys at alpine bomb this exact zone and I have a pretty good feel for where they hit and in what order. We've got without a doubt one of the most fucked up scenarios in the snow I can remember right now. It just seems to me that when situations build like they have here, there's really no reason to have people on slope anywhere underneath the expected movement.

Alpine meadows has one of the most paranoid (and conversely safe) set of patrol routes and policies of anywhere in tahoe.......by a long shot. But given the likelihood of sympathetics and unholy tracking around knolls with this last cycle, it just seems nuts to me to have people below anything but a ridge.

My understanding on the Squaw slide was the the patroller who was killed was on a ridge--the Hogsback --to the side and uphill from the patroller throwing the charge on Headwall face, which is particularly difficult to control safely because its upper half is convex. I believe Squaw modified it's procedures to allow that face to be bombed from the chair and pylons are in place at the top of this face for patrol to anchor to--someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't heard where on Sherwood South face the slide took place but it's also convex at the top--no nice cornice to throw a charge over from the ridge, which might have contributed. It's a broad fairly featureless face except for a couple of gullies (in one of which there was a fatal slide some years ago I believe and where I saw a post control slide another time--no one caught)..There really isn't a good safe zone on that face except for the very top, and obviously the patrollers have to be close enough together to see each other and help each other if one does get caught. Alpine has an avalauncher I think (they had an artillery piece that blew up and killed a forest service worker some years ago--and didn't the army take back all their artillery when we invaded Iraq) but it's on the other side of the mountain. Sherwood is the backside--there's a road to the bottom which is probably not open right after storms, but otherwise the only access to the face is from the top. Tough situation. And I think patrol gets caught more often than we realize. My son was on the Squaw patrol (at the time of the death there) and told me every veteran had taken at least one ride. My knowledge is second hand so I appreciate someone pointing out any errors I have made.

[snapt]

Alpine still has artillery on the other side. They used to have a recoiless rifle as well, replaced with a howitzer which is what I believe misfired and resulted in the fatality some years back. Not sure if they have an avalauncher.

[kidwoo]

Kidwoo,
Your backseat driving is a little nauseous. Your reference to Mt. Rose control procedures is way unfounded and infers that the weather and underlying snow stratigraphy are not factors in decision making in hazard mitigation procedures at Class A avalanche areas. I believe you last had a pass at Rose in 05/06 and not sure how often you buy tickets.

"All knowledge about reality begins with experience and terminates in it," Albert Einstein

If you're going to stalk me, at least send me some creepy flowers.

Are you now going to tell me no patroller has been flushed doing exactly what I described in the chutes? Because you and I both know that's not true.

If you've got something to share, do it. I'm just asking what to me are obvious questions arising from some accidents that (yes, in hindsight) could have some obvious solutions for the future. Either answer them or take your pearl clutching somewhere else.

[kidwoo]

My understanding on the Squaw slide was the the patroller who was killed was on a ridge--the Hogsback --to the side and uphill from the patroller throwing the charge on Headwall face, which is particularly difficult to control safely because its upper half is convex. I believe Squaw modified it's procedures to allow that face to be bombed from the chair and pylons are in place at the top of this face for patrol to anchor to--someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for a real answer.

[Shadam]

kidwoo I hear wot your saying.
I regularly question peoples percieved "saftey"

a patroller going for a ride ski cutting is not uncommon,
a patroller getting killed by a bomb another patroller detonated ???

[LightRanger]

Maybe KSL should take some of the $50 mil they're dropping into Squaw "improvements" and throw down for an Avalauncher at the bottom of Sherwood...

snapt, you know the story on their existing artillery? Because I know for a fact the howitzer they had pre-9/11 was repo'ed by the army for Afghanistan (not Iraq, as old goat mentioned). But then I've heard of them using artillery since then. Just curious what the story was. They use it for AC on the road too, right?

[TahoeJ]

Well, Alpine still has the warning signs in several places about not touching or going near any intact artillery shells - so I assume they still have something in that regard.

[kidwoo]

They use it for AC on the road too, right?

Nah.

I would pay to see that though.

[snapt]

Maybe KSL should take some of the $50 mil they're dropping into Squaw "improvements" and throw down for an Avalauncher at the bottom of Sherwood...

snapt, you know the story on their existing artillery? Because I know for a fact the howitzer they had pre-9/11 was repo'ed by the army for Afghanistan (not Iraq, as old goat mentioned). But then I've heard of them using artillery since then. Just curious what the story was. They use it for AC on the road too, right?

http://www.sierrasun.com/article/200...News/104270003
I think it sits somewhere off of scott peak. I've heard the story on the steps to get it. They went through training at some depot out near Susanville, then brought it home. Apparently there are tons of them laying around. Never heard that it got repoed, I always thought it was older "obsolete" Vietnam Era but maybe that's a replacement for one that got repoed. Who knows. They use it for the road, but I've been told they also have a bombing route that entails patrol Riding KT-22 early in the AM then working over to Alpine Meadows road, not sure how far over they'll work from that end or where they descend once done. I did hear some of them worry that KSL would start asking them to start shooting over ridges to help clear parts of Squaw, but that hasn't materialized and likely never will, way too much to go wrong. The thing has a huge kill radius. I'm assuming the road closure for so long the other day was due to a ton of slide activity and trying to get that much snow cleared of the hill and then off the road?

An avalauncher would make sense for Sherwood, although maybe there's some liability of overshooting to the frontside?

[TahoeJ]

They use it for the road, but I've been told they also have a bombing route that entails patrol Riding KT-22 early in the AM then working over to Alpine Meadows road, not sure how far over they'll work from that end or where they descend once done.

From reading about the infamous AM slide in the 80's that was definitely a route they used in the past (riding up KT) - seems logical they would still do the same for control work above the road and work their way over towards Estelle. I saw some patrol up there the other morning (our lease has a view of the back of KT) so it was definitely up close vs. long range, at least then. No idea exactly where they came down, however. Perhaps now that Squaw and Alpine are co-owned Squaw patrol helps out with that during their normal routine while up on KT.

[old goat]

Alpine still has artillery on the other side. They used to have a recoiless rifle as well, replaced with a howitzer which is what I believe misfired and resulted in the fatality some years back. Not sure if they have an avalauncher.

Thanks for straightening me out on that.
My son told me that after the Squaw accident they got some kind of equipment--he said mortar--could that be right? --but it didn't have enough range for Headwall.
The AM road does regularly get covered by control slides. Rumor has it a resident used to park his truck in front of his garage any time he wanted AM to buy him a new one. There was a dispute between AM and Placer county re who had liability for the road control work, since it's a county road. AM briefly threatened to suspend control work for the county until the county backed down. That one was in the papers.
A Wall of White is the book about the AM slide--available at the Bookstore at Hooligan Rocks in Truckee (please buy it there--only bookstore left in the area).

[kidwoo]

Dude haven't you noticed, there's not a single 'old looking' garage door on any of those houses in that strip?

Slides ripping through a few of those has happened at least 4-5 times since I've lived here.

[old goat]

Dude haven't you noticed, there's not a single 'old looking' garage door on any of those houses in that strip?

Slides ripping through a few of those has happened at least 4-5 times since I've lived here.

I wouldn't care to live on that strip. I wonder how Troy Caldwell's house survives--well located I guess?

[kidwoo]

Hell no, you couldn't pay me to live there. One of S.gaffney's buds got his garage and the first room off of it destroyed two years ago. Seems like only a matter of time before that whole scenario gives your house a clean high top fade. Caldwell's place is off to the looker's left of that whole zone. Not even close to the same topography setup.

Oh yeah.....pretty sure they don't use the big gun to bomb that. They'd have to shoot over houses to do so.........which would be insane (located on "gunner's knob btw). There's a crew that drives over to squaw and hops on KT on storm days.

Pay attention to the snow bank when you drive to alpine. You'll see rises right in the 'action zone'

[~mikey b]

used to be a truck-mounted avaluancher for road control work - unsure if that's still the case - road has been an issue for years - at one point AM stopped doing road mitigation due to issues with the FS, county and homeowners - that was not ideal

Troy's place is well built, well placed, and well protected.

it's been 10 years since I lived there, so things could have changed a bit

[Bunion 2020]

Just one comment on an Avalauncher.

Not the most effective tool for the job.

Currently a single round is around $ 80.00.

The projectiles only contain a 1kg charge (a Canadian company does offer a 2 kg charge).

The detonating system in use (with the exception of the Delta K round) cause the rounds to explode slightly after impact so unless you are able to shoot at rock bands or cliff faces, the round burrows pretty deep into the snow before it fires resulting in a pretty ineffective blast.

Avalaunchers have their place but they are not the ultimate solution.

If AM had been able to wait until good weather, maybe a heli bombing mission may have been a better way to go, but few ski areas are willing to shoulder those costs either.

[~mikey b]

heli bombing

not used around Tahoe yet, but I bet we see more of it in more places in the future

of course, I was replaced as a heli bomber in AK by a Daisy Bell.....

not too many employers are happy to see us flying around with thousands of pounds of ANFO in a ship

[Bunion 2020]

heli bombing

not used around Tahoe yet, but I bet we see more of it in more places in the future

of course, I was replaced as a heli bomber in AK by a Daisy Bell.....

not too many employers are happy to see us flying around with thousands of pounds of ANFO in a ship

I would not be surprised to see AM/SV getting a Daisy Bell either, for their storms and terrain it would make a lot of sense, especially if they could recoup some of the costs by renting it for highway control or other applications.

[beaterdit]

Condolences; vibes, etc.

Attended the funeral of my former director who was killed by avalanche in the line of duty a couple years ago.

Not very familiar with the area but even if I was it's tough to say what could be done better. These guys have lifetimes of experience between them. Just because it's an extraordinary situation out there out there doesn't mean they haven't seen similar conditions before. As discussed above, December '08 comes to mind. There are a lot of variables though, by nature, snow is inherently unpredictable, which is what makes control so dangerous.

On another note, after 9/11, the feds really cracked down artillery and explosives. It's a huge ordeal for a non federal and/or state agency to implement and maintain a long range artillery program. As Patrollers at the time, we had to fill out a bunch of supplemental riders to our explosives permits regarding even misdemeanor offenses in our pasts. There's also huge liability for the manufacturers of explosives related to avalanche control. From an industry standpoint, avalanche control work represents a tiny fraction of the business while having a proportionally very high accident rate. Bunion could probably to speak more to this but it was my understanding that the ability of non-state/federal agencies (ie: ski patrols) to use high explosives at all was in serious jeopardy for a few years there.

Anyway, hope it gets better for everyone out there. Tough deal all around.

[old goat]

Does anyone remember the Powder article a number of years ago about avy control at AM and Alta--(many AM owners ago and since the 83 slide)? The article describes the patrol director with the list of charges to be dropped that day and the mountain manager telling him to shorten the list--use less explosives. Of course that has nothing to do with the thinking of current management. (BTW the picture taken of Beaver ridge taken from the north end with patrol along the ridge and an enormous cornice is one of the greatest mountain pictures I've ever seen--AM used it in it's literature for a couple of years.)

[~mikey b]

who is using Daisy Bell in lower 48?

AEL&P in AK is the only US user I am aware of

[Bunion 2020]

There was one operating in Utah for BCC/LCC highway mitigation as well as used by the ski areas.

Also another in/near Vancouver BC.

[skinnyskier]

who is using Daisy Bell in lower 48?

AEL&P in AK is the only US user I am aware of

Jim Bay could tell you for sure, but regarding North American users I think he has one for railroad control work near Revelstoke and resort control work as well. There may be a second one in the Kootenays under contract for highway control as well. I haven't had Jim as a guide for several years so my info could be out of date. We have a fair amount of clear weather in Tahoe, so if they can do heli control work in Canada you would think we could do it here.