After you pull the avi airbag trigger...a new game plan?

[icelanticskier]

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Rog, open your mouth and remove your proverbial foot.

K THERE EXPERT

roll yer own.....................

rog

[summit]

rog,

I certainly agree that keeping calm during an emergency is very useful.

However, as far as I know, you are the only person in the world advocating the prone-head-downhill position during an avalanche. Avalanche educators and professionals advocate specifically against that for multiple reasons already mentioned here (e.g., promotes airway obstruction, head, neck, and abdominal trauma). I'll add that the statistics show that prone burials have significantly worse outcomes than other body positions for several reasons (e.g. you sink/melt into your airspace, destroying it). I'm glad it turned out OK in your avalanche incident.

Lastly, I encourage you to think about your avalanche airbag analogy as applied to a car airbag. Do you drive more recklessly because you have one? If you do, then you are choosing to defeat the purpose of the safety feature. We cannot reduce risk to zero, as you are well aware from your avalanche experiences. Properly used, safety devices do not promote risky behavior, but rather mitigate consequences if they do occur.

[icelanticskier]

rog,

I certainly agree that keeping calm during an emergency is very useful.

However, as far as I know, you are the only person in the world advocating the prone-head-downhill position during an avalanche. Avalanche educators and professionals advocate specifically against that for multiple reasons already mentioned here (e.g., promotes airway obstruction, head, neck, and abdominal trauma). I'll add that the statistics show that prone burials have significantly worse outcomes than other body positions for several reasons (e.g. you sink/melt into your airspace, destroying it). I'm glad it turned out OK in your avalanche incident.

all i can do is speak from my own experience. stats don't mean jack shit to me when i look back at what i went through. i've done plenty of reading on what the "pros" say. but when it's time for the real deal, you better do what's best to stay alive in your very own custom situation. guess i can be added to the list of prone-head-downhill survivors list.

Lastly, I encourage you to think about your avalanche airbag analogy as applied to a car airbag. Do you drive more recklessly because you have one? If you do, then you are choosing to defeat the purpose of the safety feature. We cannot reduce risk to zero, as you are well aware from your avalanche experiences. Properly used, safety devices do not promote risky behavior, but rather mitigate consequences if they do occur.

don't get me started

rog

[linvillegorge]

That's kind of like saying I played Russian Roulette once and survived, so fuck it, I'll keep on doing it.

A sample size of one is as small as a sample size gets. Completely irrelevant.

[Swine]

I also have wondered about this based on different designs. As a splitboarder would the SnowPulse Lifebag obscure my ability to see where i'm going if I pull it while trying to 45 out of a slide? Anyone have any experience with peripheral vision with it? Also, would it impede my ability to try and redirect my trajectory if I'm headed for a tree (seems like arm movement is compromised)? The whole protect your head/neck/torso thing seems legit but if airbags really don't mitigate impact that well it seems like some of the "bag overhead" designs would allow you more movement options to avoid obstacles. Thoughts?

[skinipenem]

Deinifintely agree staying calm. Unlike drowning when people die of hypoxia, avy burial 'victims' die of asphyxia (hypercarbia.). Staying calm will limit the increase in metabolic rate and carbon dioxide production.

I have no experience swimming in an avalanche, but have swam class v whitewater a few more times than i can recall. I would use theos approach and try the corkscrew backstroke ferry method with feet 'downstream.'. If ones lucky enough to reach the lateral edge of the slide then converting to a head first method to break through to the unaffected snow might help make the final punch, akin to breaking through an eddy wall.

Frankly swimming whitewater mainly requires a calm mind that can adapt to A variety of nasty shit and flow through through it / cooperate with the flow to escape.

If I where headed over a cliff or some other kind of unavoidable mank that kicking off of would be fruitless..... Then ball up and pray baby.

I'm curious what sort of hydraulics are occurring in a slide. I.e. What is the mechanism of femur fractures during a slide?
IMHO

[icelanticskier]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^good stuff there. calm works in car crashes too. had a really bad head on collision a bunch of years back coming back from the ski hill. my girl and i were in my old honda CRX 2 seater. tiny little car. roads were like a hockey rink with 6'+snowbanks on both sides of the narrow road. we come over a hill on a straightaway, come down the hill, we're doing 40-50mph in the other direction i see this big buick starting to lose control probably a 1/4 mile down the road coming towards us. there was nothing wee could do. it spun into our lane and we couldn't even slow down at all. about 5 seconds before full on impact i looked over at her and calmly said, "just relax, stay calm" BOOM!!! full on head on. the impact was unreal. the front bumper of the crx was almost even with the windshield and my front drivers side tire was under where i was sitting. car was a junker. i crawled out the window and puller her out. both of us completely fine cept she had a slight seatbelt bruise from the impact. we both completely jelly fished, never tensed up through the crash. i'd like to think that staying calm helped.

rog

[LocoDuk]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^good stuff there...

There are some really great quotes from Laurence Gonzales' Deep Survival that talk about being "cool" (calm) in survival type situations. Unfortunately it's not necessarily a learned trait, but I believe it has been shown (sorry no awesome study to quote) that those who can remain calm have a much higher rate of survival in "extreme" situations. If you can remain calm, you're much better physically equipped to adapt and react to the situation unfolding.

[summit]

Deinifintely agree staying calm. Unlike drowning when people die of hypoxia, avy burial 'victims' die of asphyxia (hypercarbia.). Staying calm will limit the increase in metabolic rate and carbon dioxide production.

So asphyxia literally means without a heartbeat, but what we mean by it is death from hypoxia due to inability to bring in oxygen. In an avalanche, that is going to be due to airway obstruction (snow or traumatic), smothering (no airpocket/ice mask), compressive (snow pushes on chest, cannot expand), or displacement (theoretically, if fully buried with a 100% nitrogen or CO2 filled airbag that then pops).

Hypercapnia is surely comorbid with asphyxiation, but it is not what kills you short term; lack of oxygen does that. Keeping your metabolic rate down will decrease your oxygen demand though.

Hypercapnia is thought to play a larger role when one is buried for a longer period (at least 15 minutes, or perhaps not even until 60 or 90 minutes): see the Grissom and Radwin's study for more (or Burgger, Falk, and Summan's study).

I'm curious what sort of hydraulics are occurring in a slide. I.e. What is the mechanism of femur fractures during a slide?

Mechanism for a femur fracture in an avalanche is almost always due to a direct impact to the front or side of the upper leg against a hard object (tree, rock).

As far as "hydraulics," read the Dale Atkins article (and Theo's full article) I linked on the previous page as it discusses the topic in detail.

[TahoeJ]

I would suggest that going into a ball would be bad for the simple fact that a forward or upward impact could send your knees right into your head and possibly break your neck. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but that's my initial reaction.

[WARY]

We've done a lot of testing over the years using life sized 180 pound test dummies harnessed to avalanche airbags and about the only thing you see during an avalanche is the air bag riding above the surface of the snow.
Occasionally the snows part and we can see the test dummies inside the avalanches. They are most always uphill of the inflated air bag, meaning the air bags appear to be "leading" the test dummies down the mountain. This is assuming the dummy is fully engulfed and moving along inside a rapidly moving avalanche, and not a smaller avalanche without much snow or velocity.

As all avalanche air bag manufacturers harness their air bags to the user's shoulders and upper back, this indicates to us that the victim is traveling head first and face down during the avalanche. However, once the avalanche begins to slow down and "pile up" at the bottom of the slide, the test dummies can be pushed under the air bag, or to the front or sides of the air bag. We have even found test dummies sitting upright and looking back uphill, completely exposed on top of the snow after a ride of a mile or more.

Until the avalanche begins to subside we believe the user can plan on being dragged along by their shoulders and should continue to "swim", and what this really accomplishes is shedding snow off the victim as the avalanche tries to bury them. Once the slide begins to slow it is even more important to continue to try and shed snow. The air bag works best when it is traveling at speed, and once the snow begins to slow it becomes easier for snow to accumulate around and on top of the victim and the air bag begins to lose its effectiveness.

Test dummies are often found with very little of their body exposed, as they lack the ability to move or swim and shed snow at the end of the slide.

[CookieMonster]

i think staying calm once you know yer goin down is HUGE. your brain/body works much better when you're calm. i mean if yer goin under, yer goin under. freaking out and being scared can really make things much worse imo.

the things i did when i got dragged under for a coupla football fields+ or so: stayed completely calm as i watched it barreling down at me. outskiing it wasn't an option. let it hit me hard with a big exhale, inhaled as i got pulled down. i then made sure to stay belly down with hands out front kinda like body surfing so i knew which way was up. all of the while i was constantly spitting to keep the snow out that was trying to force itself in. biggest thing was staying calm and relaxed as i figured acting like a jelly fish would allow my limbs just to flow with the forces and terrain.

getting one ski to come off was key as i was then able to thrash and swim my way to the surface and pop up unharmed, completely, not a scratch. kept on skiing. it was a pretty big fucking slide.

kinda tough to plan for something like that. if you spend a lot of time in avy terrain and have a higher than normal risk tolerance, the way you handle potentially stressful situations of any kind is paramount. the mountains don't give a rats ass how nice and humble you are. confidence and toughness rule out there.

rog

i'm not a fan of airbags. my post had more to do with planning/thought process while taking a ride. twas much easier sliding belly 1st face down with ski tips dragging behind me, and easier on the limbs as well.

rog

oh ya? sez who? you speaking from experience? you tried it? or read it in some book. lots of shit goin down all at once and very quickly. you wouln't wanna fall with crampons on and slide on yer butt feet first. skis downhill and catching edges mighta torn my legs off or at least tore ligs.

not a fan of airbags cuz my goal is to stay outta slides, not go into terrain with the idea that if i get caught i can just pull cord, "just in case"

plus it adds weight

rog

You know what? Not only do you post a lot of drivel, but the drivel you write makes it painfully obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. I mean, really, it's almost as if you try to come across like a total moron.

Don't like airbags? Don't use one!

Great contributions from Summit and Bunion.

[skifishbum]

You know what? Not only do you post a lot of drivel, but the drivel you write makes it painfully obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. I mean, really, it's almost as if you try to come across like a total moron.

Don't like airbags? Don't use one!

Great contributions from Summit and Bunion.

qft
ROJ is going with his avvy expert mentor
Him and the quaterlappin bobblehead CG aint payin for no damn avvy bag to leave at the bottom of the slope
and quaterlap hipptiyhop with their shovels and probes.
87 turns solo down sweet roll bowl
look at me.
I rode the wwod and I'm an expert that couldn't hang in the west

[icelanticskier]

well that's not very nice SFB.

tough day cookie?

rog

[1000-oaks]

Until the avalanche begins to subside we believe the user can plan on being dragged along by their shoulders and should continue to "swim", and what this really accomplishes is shedding snow off the victim as the avalanche tries to bury them. Once the slide begins to slow it is even more important to continue to try and shed snow.

Many thanks, info based on actual field testing.

[splat]

Why don't you guys ask StuntCok to chime in on this thread?
He rode it out top to bottom with an airbag in AK last year.

[johngenx]

I think the key to living a safer life is staying away from this rog dude. He's got a severe trauma experience for every type of incident.

[BFD]

The WARI post actually makes this thread interesting again. I cannot imagine being dragged head first down a mountain by something around your neck. I reviewed the StuntCok video and at 2:28 he talks about this. The video explicity mentions once the airbag deploys he is able to get in a feet first position and smooth out the ride. Like Splat mentioned it would be very interesting to get a personal statement from him or others on how the airbag performed and what they did to insure they came out on top. I do not know who WARI is but it would seem they would of talked to users. They make the statement

As all avalanche air bag manufacturers harness their air bags to the user's shoulders and upper back, this indicates to us that the victim is traveling head first and face down during the avalanche.

Than go on to refer to swimming. Is this really the case?

[dino]

Lastly, I encourage you to think about your avalanche airbag analogy as applied to a car airbag. Do you drive more recklessly because you have one? If you do, then you are choosing to defeat the purpose of the safety feature. We cannot reduce risk to zero, as you are well aware from your avalanche experiences. Properly used, safety devices do not promote risky behavior, but rather mitigate consequences if they do occur.

Somewhat off-topic, but this is a great analogy. Now imagine if cars with airbags weighed twice as much and cost 5 times as much as cars without did. Kinda illustrates the problem for me right now with an airbag. When the weight is negligible and the cost is minor, it will be really nice to have something effective, but that I never, ever intend to use (and would not have used, yet (knock on wood) in my first 20 years of backcountry skiing.)

Also, another thought about the car analogy. In general, for about the past 20 years, as cars have gotten safer and safer, accident rates have remained about the same as the gains in car safety are off-set by higher average speeds. Food for thought.

[1000-oaks]

^^^^ True, but the increase in car speed is not due to the increase in safety. It's due to cars having better handling, more power (on average), and being generally easier to control at speed. Drivers don't drive faster because they're thinking "I have side airbags," they drive faster because cars are more refined and don't feel like they're going fast anymore.

[EarlyWood]

Why don't you guys ask StuntCok to chime in on this thread?
He rode it out top to bottom with an airbag in AK last year.

want to hear this..

[skifishbum]

Somewhat off-topic, but this is a great analogy. Now imagine if cars with airbags weighed twice as much and cost 5 times as much as cars without did. Kinda illustrates the problem for me right now with an airbag. When the weight is negligible and the cost is minor, it will be really nice to have something effective, but that I never, ever intend to use (and would not have used, yet (knock on wood) in my first 20 years of backcountry skiing.)

Also, another thought about the car analogy. In general, for about the past 20 years, as cars have gotten safer and safer, accident rates have remained about the same as the gains in car safety are off-set by higher average speeds. Food for thought.

solid analogy
I'm not against airbags but If any of my partners ask should I spend $500 on quality avvy instruction or a woffer or emt course vrs. a airbag pack.
knowledge ftw
wtf do you put in an 18l airbag pack?
Good luck surviving the night of havin much rescue gear
but if you feel safer in the side or slack country go for it.

[garyfromterrace]

To play devil's advocate -

You keep your skis on and the pressure of having a ski on under the avalanching snow pretzels your leg, you have your skis and no knee left, now what's your plan?

I'd rather be uninjured and deal with a long slog out than injury any day of the week.

^^^^
this
and, use all the skills you have to not be in "that" place at "that" time.

[icelanticskier]

^^^^
this
and, use all the skills you have to not be in "that" place at "that" time.

yup. and to the avi "pros" like cookie man and others, you can try to say you should do things like go feet 1st not head 1st and so on, but the avalanche is gonna decide for ya n how/what yer ride is gonna entail. skis on? maybe. feet 1st with skis on would be a bloody nightmare imo. i'd like to think that head 1st with tips dragging behind me saved my legs/knees. you really think you can brainstorm ahead as to what the proper thing to do is if you take a ride? sure, but all happens all too fast and probably won't work out as planned and if you don't relax and go with what the beast serves ya, "the right way" could kill ya.

rog

[skifishbum]

^^^ stoked to be one of the few on tgr who realize you are just as fuckin clueless IRL as you are on the webz.
continue to believe and pretend you are an expert.
I guess being on the east coast helps you with that fantasy