After you pull the avi airbag trigger...a new game plan?

[gaijin]

horseshit
also horseshit
initially good advice followed by more claptrap

*edited to merge 2 posts:

Covert- you think you can get out of moving snow? Good plan.

You don't think the majority of people who get caught are pros? Maybe I should have said savvy instead. They're the ones riding it. I can guarantee Jim Jack and his crew went by the book.

and 3- Do you really think people get caught by factors they were aware of? No, they got caught by something unanticipated.

Apparently people around here think that guys with nearly 20 years experience in avi conditions with America's highest certs, bombing experience, etc are full of shit. I'll tell you what- you keep up that attitude. If anyone reading this thinks anyone's experiences in moving snow is horseshit, or perhaps you think you know it all, feel free to ski alone.

I hope your arrogance doesn't catch up to you, Covert.

[icelanticskier]

Do you really think people get caught by factors they were aware of? No, they got caught by something unanticipated.

i had a pretty good feeling that the slope that slid on me might go. i went into that 1st turn with my partner aware of this too which is why i entered it and communicated my plan in detail before i started skiing. so why'd i go? well, the snow looked fantastic and i was curious to see how my plan of making that 1st few turns in to a hard left to my island of (not quite as safe as it had been in the past) safety. unfortunately, all went according to plan C that day. fortunately i got out of it. fortunately i can look back at my experience and know where my head was at and know now where i would rather have my head be.

unfortunately, too many are not so fortunate.

rog

[covert]

Covert- you think you can get out of moving snow? Good plan.

Sometimes, yes. But that's an opinion not a plan.

You don't think the majority of people who get caught are pros? Maybe I should have said savvy instead. They're the ones riding it.

I believe the majority of people caught in avalanches are not paid skiing professionals. Maybe I'm wrong. "Savvy" is rather vague. Clearly they vary in level of experience and acceptable risk.

and 3- Do you really think people get caught by factors they were aware of? No, they got caught by something unanticipated.

It's actually quite common for people to be caught by factors they were aware of but felt they could manage, chose to ignore, etc.

Apparently people around here think that guys with nearly 20 years experience in avi conditions with America's highest certs, bombing experience, etc are full of shit. I'll tell you what- you keep up that attitude.

Now you've lost me.

I hope your arrogance doesn't catch up to you, Covert.

Thanks, me too. Have a nice day.

[Meanfruit]

Sure a lot of dick waving going on in a thread about how dick waving causes trouble. Carry on.

[StuntCok]

My 2 cents.

Last April I was carried top to bottom in Alaska in a medium sized slide, which I documented here.

What I wrote does cover some of the issues addressed in the thread. I would like to emphasize a few points as well as perhaps add a few as there are opinions in this thread that do not match my one experience.

Firstly, ditching my equipment was not optional. As I said, I don't use pole straps and one ski was ripped off my foot in the first moments. The second ski's lack of release became my most imminent problem. The snow pulled HARD on the ski and only by pulling in my leg with maximum force did it release (by breaking), which immediately relieved the forces that would have likely caused serious injury had they persisted. There is a good account of a pro snowboarder caught in a slide in Japan and, after one foot broke free, the avi ripped apart his pelvis via his attached foot.

While I did insert my avalung before pulling my airbag, this wasn't the order I attempted. After my ski released, I went for my ripcord but, having never practiced with it (it was my second day with the bag) I fumbled it while snow was being pushed down my throat. Having trouble breathing, I decided to insert my avalung first (on which I have much practice), which allowed me to breath. I then made a more concerted effort at the cord, looking down at it and yanking it with both hands and it inflated.

Once inflated, I felt the pack straps pull me up, as if I was being lifted by my armpits and the violent tumbling abated. My experience was that it put my feet downhill, as though I were canyoning, but it could be because I did pull it later in the slide, when things may have been slowing down. I do not know.

I don't know what other people experienced but I did not experience panic. It was very easy for me to consciously decide what to do. Once I knew what was happening, I made the decision to cut right 45 degrees, when I fell I made the decision to bring my knee in and pull against the ski, I made the conscious decision to pull my cord and, when that failed and I was choking, I thought that my avalung may help so I went for it. I then worked the ripcord with all my effort.

I may add more later but it is time for me to go drinking!

[StuntCok]

Didn't really feel like drinking, after all.

Anyway, I guess my final conclusion from my experience is to practice with your equipment. I may have consciously decided to go for the rip cord but it was an awkward motion toward an object I didn't really have good spacial awareness of (especially in the washing machine), having never even played with the ripcord before. The avalung, which I have been playing with for years, went in quite naturally.

[smolakian]

IMHO, never having had the experience of being in a slide, I would definitely ditch the skis and poles. Although, I feel like that might be a foregone conclusion in most cases. Besides, if the skis are still clamped to your feet after getting caught they're probably on there pretty tight & taking them off isn't going to be a trivial matter! Regardless, there are plenty of arguments I can come up with as to why skis-on is probably a bad idea; Just thinking about the way the airbag works, it seems pretty clear that skis/poles will act in resistance the effects of granular convection (which is why you float) both directly (in a fluid-dynamics sense) and indirectly, through an increased chance of getting caught up in "strainers" under the surface. That's all in addition to the risk presented by tumbling around with extra-long rigid appendages that can cause blunt trauma and act as force-multipliers (levers) on your biological joints.

Swimming? What's the point if you've got an airbag? The effect of flailing your arms and draining all of your energy is a drop in the bucket compared to the balloon on your back. Save your energy to maintain awareness so that you can avoid obstacles and act quickly and efficiently once the movement starts to slow. That way you'll be prepared to clear an air pocket, make sure there are visible indicators of your location above the surface to aid in rescue, dig yourself out, rescue your friends, etc...

It seems to me that it would be like taking a bad swim an a particularly nasty rapid; Go with the flow, there's nothing more draining and futile than trying to fight the physics of mother nature. It's all a waste if you don't leave yourself any for the hike out.

[skideeppow]

The ultimate survival strategy is to not get caught in an avalanche. Since the dawn of skiing and forever more until we have escape rockets (or speed wings): ALWAYS TRY TO SKI OUT AT A 45 DEGREE ANGLE!

ONCE CAUGHT:

The old school method: YELL and ditch everything and try to swim as hard as possible. If you feel the avalanche slowing down, then protect your airway and stick up a hand.

The debate of the late 2000s was whether to swim or simply protect your airway. Statistical analysis certainly shows that those who are unburied quickly dead and unrevivable usually had airways full of snow or no air pocket. Respected avalanche researcher, instructor, patroller, and rescuer Dale Atkins discovered through research that:
1. Most avalanche victims reported inability to feel any progress from swimming
2. By the time people stopped their fruitless swimming because they felt the avalanche slow, it was already too late to make an air pocket.
Dale wrote about this and much more about the dynamnics of an avalanche in motion (and how it explains points 1 & 2) here: http://www.americanavalancheassociat...25_4_LoRes.pdf (Pages 9-11, my unrelated article is on Page 6)

Dale advocates: Protecting your airway as the number one priority:
1. Yell and grab your pack strap with one arm putting your elbow over your face.
2. Put your other arm up in the air.
3. Whitewater swim: feet downhill to protect your head and torso from obstacles.

When presenting this position at CSAW 2006, I asked Dale what about an Avalung user? He said that changes the game some.

With the advent of the Avalung, if you use it properly by skiing with it in, the airway issue is solved. Respected Alaskan guide Theo Meiners advocated using an avalung at all times and utilizing a multistep method of swimming depending where you are in the slide based on the dynamics described in Dale's article above.
http://www.fsavalanche.org/NAC/techP...eltMeiners.pdf

Attachment 108279

While presenting this method at CSAW 2009, Theo pointed out that these methods were impossible if a victim was fighting to keep the snow out of their mouth and pointed out the importance of an Avalung. He was asked how best to practice these techniques. Theo replied, "swim a lot of Class V whitewater."

SO WHAT ABOUT THE AIRBAG USER?
This is an excellent question. I think that an airbag user should try to ski out like everyone else, yelling and pulling the airbag at the first hint of a slide. If caught, deploy the airbag if not done already, then use Dale's method because using Theo's methods are hard for the unpracticed even if you don't have the added complication of a ginormous airbag. The airbag will do the job of preventing burial and thus giving a surface clue; the victim should be focused on keeping their airway open, preserving an air pocket, and putting feet downhill for extra protection.

Great stuff Summit. This would fly in the face of my own theory that speed is your friend. Getting off the slab of slide itself with tons of speed would also potentially put you at the front of the slide, the most dangerouse part with the subducting etc. If you going slower, you could potentially fall back into the tail end, where speeds and forces seem to be slower.

Anythoughts on this?

[skinipenem]

We also found that the avy air bags remain out on the leading edge of the avalanche if they are hit by a moving slide. If the air bags are placed in the starting zone and start moving at the same time as the avalanche it's a slightly different story, and usually the air bags remain in the forward 1/4 of the avalanche, but not out front. -WARI

That is pretty much what occurs when a whitewater kayaker gets pummeled by a large ocean wave when the boater&boat wipe out on the green water vs. on the whitewash or in the whitewash (having the wave break over them.)

Thinking about how to deal with the shit ahead of time helps.

IME... of course.

(disclaimer: I have yet to be caught in a snow avalanche.)