AT Boots in Alpine Bindings - Controlled Test

[summit]

Plakespear. There is real wold wear and tear on the DIN systems so they are created to work within a range of component wear.

Temperature decreases rubber\plastic's viscosity and increases the durometer. In plain english, they get harder. Since they get harder, the coefficient of friction for their interface will also decrease.

Cold soaking outside in snow as mentioned would introduce additional variables to the testing, primarially water which would also help to lubricate the slip surfaces of the boot sole and AFD.

Just something to keep in mind.

Agreed. The water introduced by snow is easy to prevent, though it would be present in the real world anyway. However, even kept dry, condensation is unavoidable.

[jrredho]

just off the top of the old noggin', if the afd is the
same distance from the toe on the AT binding as it is on the new solly
914, there would be no difference in releasability for vibram soles in
either (the afds of the new solly 914 and the freeride look almost
identical). even in the 914's favor would be the fact that the wings are
adjustable and would be able to more closely couple (heh) with the toe of
the boot, no?

It's not the wings, and it's not the afd height that make the difference.

The non-Dynafit AT bindings that I've seen have the afd at an angle to
accommodate the upturned toe (boot rocker) that is present in AT boots.
Alpine bindings have little-to-none of that angle. The boot toe contact
areas, therefore, are completely different when you put an AT boot into an
alpine binding vs putting a DIN standard alpine boot into one. How this
affects the boot/binding release characteristics is an open question.

cheers,
john

[Core Shot]

Bump for Jongs with limited searching skillz

[charlesj]

True, I cannot search my way out of...the screen door in a submarine.

Most enlightening thread. It confirms my gut. will mount the AT binders on something.

Thanks for the shared wisdom Core Shot et al

[davep]

So... has anybody put an AT boot into a new 914 binding to see if it contacts the AFD correctly?

If so, then the 914/AT boot combo might warrant another test on if somebody has access to them and a testing machine.

[Adski]

bumpity bump. Have some old Scarpa Titans (silver, 3-buckles and a strap) that I'm gonna try in some Salomon 912 TIs. These are for groomer days. I'll let you know how my knees hold up.

[summit]

I love that this thread is over 5 years old.

AT boots + P12s continue to be a winning combo (semiturntable, moving AFD, auto-toe height + vertical release and auto wings).

[Hugh Conway]

AT boots + P12s continue to be a winning combo (semiturntable, moving AFD, auto-toe height + vertical release and auto wings).

You haven't died yet doing that?

[Eluder]

Just looking for some info... search cam up empty. I got my hands on some atomic FFG 12 with adjustable toe height and moving AFD (AKA 07 salomon 912). These will go on the GF's skis so release is more important than if they were mine.

Her only boot is the Scarpa Diva and lugging heavy boards with heavy AT bindings up the Ridge at Bridger is proving to be taxing for her. We are in the process of getting her lighter boards but figured why not lighten it up all the way around. She has a Dynafit setup for touring so that function is lost on this setup.

I am not looking for someone to say that her knees will be forever fine. I am just hoping some one has tried this. I saw that it was talked about by Summit but that seemed to be the end of it.

[XXX-er]

Personaly I have enough problems with women let alone fucking up my GF's legs ...I would say let your GF decide

and jjredho has the reasoning nailed for me about 8 posts back

[Eluder]

I just dont see how it could be any different that a naxo toe, they both have a rounded afd. Maybe I am off with my logic but it seems to have everything it needs to be as safe as any AT binding....

I guess there is only one way to find out..... I was just hoping someone else tested this before i drilled the skis..... maybe ill mount them on a 2x4.....

I found this shot on epic of the AFD, mine is all black and harder to see.

[H-wood]

The lower the DIN setting, the less consistent release is going to be. If she's a lightweight running low settings, it might be a bad idea to add friction to the system (and a boot that may flex or deform more in the binding before releasing.

[XXX-er]

if you compare the design of a din boot & binding to an AT boot and binding :

the alpine boot has a completely flat plastic sole which is well lubricated by water/snow ,it aint made for walking ...anyone who has fallen on their ass on a wet floor knows this ,also the din soles are thinner than AT soles

an AT boot has a curved vibram sole which is a friction device designed to facilitate walking

an alpine binding can and does have the AFD closer to the toe piece because the din sole on an alpine boot is completely flat also the clamping action of an alpine is designed for a much thinner sole

an AT binding has the AFD further back from the toe piece so the AFD can contact the flattest part of the afformentioned curved AT sole

still you are dealing with rubber which besides being curved is a friction material that also compresses ... much more varibility than hard/smooth/flat plastic

even an alpine boot in an AT binding designed to work with either/or will just performs better and an alpine boot & binding combo will just perform better again

[Eluder]

if you compare the design of a din boot & binding to an AT boot and binding :

an AT binding has the AFD further back from the toe piece so the AFD can contact the flattest part of the afformentioned curved AT sole

This is why the afd moves back on Dukes/barons as toe height is increase. makes sense.

I know that the scarpas do have fairly rockered sole. Maybe the 3 lbs we took off her skis will be enough... would still be interesting to din test these or here from some one who has.

[Kim Jong-un]

Bringing up an ancient thread--on my first post--so my flak jacket is on.

Anybody know if the Garmont Shaman AT sole works OK with the FKS 140 toe?

I would like to get a set of Rossi FKS140's put on my Mantras, but my ski shop is telling me if I want to use non-din AT soles I need to get a toe with adjustable height, and the only comparable alpine binder they have with the height adjust toe is the Solly 14 Driver. Now I don't know if they're overreacting from a liability standpoint, but the Shaman AT soles are kind of a hybrid AT sole and not the thicker Vibram sole on my Adrenalines.

I'm not gonna be using Vibram soles in the FKS, I just would like to know if anyone has seen or used the (less aggressive Shaman) AT sole with an FKS type toe.

Thanks!

Btw, I already have a dedicated AT set up of Naxo's and Adrenalines so I'd rather like to avoid the Dukes.

[Jax]

^^^
I do not recommend it.

That boot comes with both AT and DIN/ISO soles. Use the alpine soles they come with, not the AT soles. The AT soles are for AT binders only even though they don't look as beefy as a traditional lugged AT sole such as Vibram. The composite is still pretty soft and grippy- don't be fooled by the less aggressive appearance. To be honest, I'm surprised the shop knew enough to tell the diff.

[skimaxpower]

Trust your shop rat. He's right this time. Go for the Solly with adjustable toe height - but know that even then, it still won't truly be a 'compatible' setup. (Doesn't meet exact DIN specs.)

[Kim Jong-un]

Ok got it. Thanks guys.

[strawjack]

To be honest, I'm surprised the shop knew enough to tell the diff.

he's in VT! score one for the ec shop

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

I have done side by side torque tests with alpine and AT boots. They release MUCH nicer on the bench without any weight on the rubber soles. When you try to twist out of the toe while standing in your boots - forget it! Knee surgery for you!!

[wildskizer]

Removable Non slip rubber Toe and heel soles are made to make Alpine Ski boots safer to walk in on slippery surfaces. Can someone design and make a removable slippery toe piece [ with a Teflon surface? ] that can be put on the toe and heel of AT boots to facilitate better / good frictionless release contact between the bindings and boot soles?

Cheers

[summit]

I have done side by side torque tests with alpine and AT boots. They release MUCH nicer on the bench without any weight on the rubber soles. When you try to twist out of the toe while standing in your boots - forget it! Knee surgery for you!!

With what bindings?

Removable Non slip rubber Toe and heel soles are made to make Alpine Ski boots safer to walk in on slippery surfaces. Can someone design and make a removable slippery toe piece [ with a Teflon surface? ] that can be put on the toe and heel of AT boots to facilitate better / good frictionless release contact between the bindings and boot soles?

Cheers

Why not just use a binding with a moving AFD

[Micol]

starting 3rd season with Dynafit ZZeus using the AT soles in Alpine bindings (as well as dynafits )

Alpine Combos I have tried

ZZues +
Head / Tyrolia bindings Mojos, TD8
Marker Jesters
Rossi Axial 2 120
Marker Dukes

You cannot use a DIN chart to set. You literally have to tweak on the hill. Set low and slowly adjust up.

so you get an idea.....i had the Axials set on 6 for toe and heel. If I was in a pure alpine boot , I would have had this binding set between 10-12

So beware and start with very low setting first

[Core Shot]

starting 3rd season with Dynafit ZZeus using the AT soles in Alpine bindings




You cannot use a DIN chart to set. You literally have to tweak on the hill. Set low and slowly adjust up.

so you get an idea.....i had the Axials set on 6 for toe and heel. If I was in a pure alpine boot , I would have had this binding set between 10-12

So beware and start with very low setting first

that is some good empirical real world data. Would be interesting to get more experience from others.

Shop testing with a torque wrench has got to be different than real world with 200 + pounds of weight and force pressing the rubber sole down into a non-moving AFD.

I really think a moving AFD is key for AT boot release.
Are there any decent AT bindings without a moving AFD?
(other than dynafit)

Fritschi, Duke, Naxo, etc all have sliding AFD, right?

[Sinecure]

I've been pleased so far with using the new Marker Squire binding with my Dynafit Zzeus boots. Squire has the moving AFD like Duke/Baron/Jester and has a ramped height adjustment like the Duke/Baron. It doesn't have as much adjustment as the Duke, but it seems to be sufficient to work. Would love to see some empirical tests.