AT Boots in Alpine Bindings - Controlled Test

[changodeoro]

Whoa. 9 year anniversary bump. This may be one of the first threads I lurked on, and I can't believe we are still deciding the best compromise for rockered vibram in alpine bindings.

The 9 year summary: There is still no “certified” option for rockered vibram in an alpine binding. The only boots with rubber and a walk mode “certified” for alpine bindings are flat-soled with "walk modes" of varying quality.

Soooo, what’s the latest? Jester with adjustable AFD or Solly with adjustable toe height? ANY other options?

[Meadow Skipper]

Soooo, what’s the latest? Jester with adjustable AFD or Solly with adjustable toe height? ANY other options?

A Marker/Volkl rep told me yesterday that Marker's coming out next season with an alpine binding with an adjustable height toe piece that will take either an alpine or AT boot. Called the 'SP' for Ski Patrol.

[summit]

I think i a Jester is a good choice. I'd still do a PX or turntable with a moving AFD and a P14 or below multiaxis toe (this is what I'm using).

A Marker/Volkl rep told me yesterday that Marker's coming out next season with an alpine binding with an adjustable height toe piece that will take either an alpine or AT boot. Called the 'SP' for Ski Patrol.

Good on them!

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[changodeoro]

A Marker/Volkl rep told me yesterday that Marker's coming out next season with an alpine binding with an adjustable height toe piece that will take either an alpine or AT boot.

Man that sounds good, and I'll be watching for sure. Thanks for the ray of hope.

I'd still do a PX or turntable with a moving AFD and a P14 or below multiaxis toe (this is what I'm using).

I pray for the day when these shenanigans are a relic of the past. Happy Anniversary Summit!!

[Meadow Skipper]

A Marker/Volkl rep told me yesterday that Marker's coming out next season with an alpine binding with an adjustable height toe piece that will take either an alpine or AT boot. Called the 'SP' for Ski Patrol.

Man that sounds good, and I'll be watching for sure. Thanks for the ray of hope.

I just noticed that you're in New Mexico. It might amuse you to hear that the rep told me this when I ran into him at the Santa Fe Whole Foods. We were waiting for the person behind the bread counter to pull her head out of her ass.

Small world.

[changodeoro]

We were waiting for the person behind the bread counter to pull her head out of her ass.

Whoa whoa whoa. Sara is a very nice person. On the other hand I've been waiting for this boot/binding shit to happen for 9 years

[Meadow Skipper]

Whoa whoa whoa. Sara is a very nice person. On the other hand I've been waiting for this boot/binding shit to happen for 9 years

[Chainsaw_Willie]

So skimming through this thread, I'm picking up that something like the Jester which has a gliding AFD *and* an adjustable toe height is NOT a good idea with an AT boot for some reason?

[summit]

^why not?

[DropCliffsNotBombs]

So skimming through this thread, I'm picking up that something like the Jester which has a gliding AFD *and* an adjustable toe height is NOT a good idea with an AT boot for some reason?

Not sure what would give you that impression... As of now, Jesters are the hands-down BEST alpine binding for cramming AT boots into.

[userA]

A Marker/Volkl rep told me yesterday that Marker's coming out next season with an alpine binding with an adjustable height toe piece that will take either an alpine or AT boot. Called the 'SP' for Ski Patrol.

that rumor has made it's way pacificnorthwest of last known message that confirms this news

[Meadow Skipper]

that rumor has made it's way pacificnorthwest of last known message that confirms this news

Um...what?

[ACH]

^^^
Also confirmed in the PNW, by those in a position to know...

A Marker/Volkl rep told me yesterday that Marker's coming out next season with an alpine binding with an adjustable height toe piece that will take either an alpine or AT boot. Called the 'SP' for Ski Patrol.

Actually, the name is the "Lord"...
AFAIK, it is based upon a Jester (same hole pattern).
Jondrums, are you paying attention?

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Not sure what would give you that impression... As of now, Jesters are the hands-down BEST alpine binding for cramming AT boots into.

The fact that you say "best alpine binding for cramming AT boots into" and the fact that Marker is supposedly coming out with a new binding with a different toe piece specifically for use with both AT and alpine boots. If the Jester is already a good option, why do they need a new and different binding?

[bbense]

The fact that you say "best alpine binding for cramming AT boots into" and the fact that Marker is supposedly coming out with a new binding with a different toe piece specifically for use with both AT and alpine boots. If the Jester is already a good option, why do they need a new and different binding?

BEST = "least chance of causing a spiral tibia fracture"

i.e. it sucks less than all the alternatives, not that it provides anything like the reliablity of release we've come to expect. No shop in it's right mind would sell you that setup, or even set the DIN for you. That's what Marker wants to be able to give shops.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

BEST = "least chance of causing a spiral tibia fracture"

i.e. it sucks less than all the alternatives, not that it provides anything like the reliablity of release we've come to expect. No shop in it's right mind would sell you that setup, or even set the DIN for you. That's what Marker wants to be able to give shops.

And thus my first post on this topic - that even though the Jester has the sliding AFD and adjustable toe height it's *still* not a good idea.

Guess I need to compare a Jester toe to something like a Duke toe to see what the difference is and try to come to some understanding of why the Jester toe won't release reliably whereas the Duke will.

[ACH]

And thus my first post on this topic - that even though the Jester has the sliding AFD and adjustable toe height it's *still* not a good idea.

Guess I need to compare a Jester toe to something like a Duke toe to see what the difference is and try to come to some understanding of why the Jester toe won't release reliably whereas the Duke will.

The range of adjustment on the Duke is almost three~four times as much (eyeballing it) as the current Jester that adjusts.

[LC]

Pretty sure the new SP model will just be a Jester with more range of toe height adjustment. The standard Jester toe fits some AT soles unmodified but not all.

[ACH]

Pretty sure the new SP model will just be a Jester with more range of toe height adjustment. The standard Jester toe fits some AT soles unmodified but not all.

If you look at a Jester side by side with a Duke, IMO it doesn't look that simple.
The current height of the Jester toe is lower to the ski and there isn't as much room to move the ADF down as there is on the Duke.
BTW, SP is most likely a working name, Maker has bean using the "Royal Family" for the naming convention on most of their bindings for a while now. I was told this weekend that this model is called the Lord.

[skiingsamurai]

Lars Chickering-Ayers is starting a business, CAST (find it on facebook) that is addressing this very problem.
On one side, they are designing a plate/mechanism allowing you to swap a tech toe binding with a DH toe on the fly. Not a weight saving system, just utilizing a better touring binding for the up, and a better DH binding on the way down.
The other half is making a toe that is compatible with DIN bindings with tech toe inserts. Similar to what Arne Backstrom has done with his frankenboot. This requires planing down the original toe and t-nutting in the new toe. Its pretty solid. This is not an epoxied in insert, this is an engineered, molded and cast part. Its pretty solid.
They are pushing the industry to bridge the gap with one set of toes/heels to be DIN and tech compatible, not like the swappable soles (read: tecnica and BD).
As I understand it, Nordica has a boot in the works like this, as does K2.

It is absurd they boot manufactures havent done this yet.

[summit]

Someone turned this thread topic into published research!

Performance of Alpine Touring Boots When Used in Alpine Ski Bindings
2016 - Journal of Applied Biomechanics - Jeffrey R. Campbell , * 1 , Irving S. Scher , * 1, 2 , David Carpenter , * 3 , Bruce L. Jahnke
https://journals.humankinetics.com/d.../jab.2016-0256

Alpine touring (AT) equipment is designed for ascending mountains and snow skiing down backcountry terrain. Skiers have been observed using AT boots in alpine (not made for Alpine Touring) ski bindings. We tested the effect on the retention-release characteristics of AT boots used in alpine bindings. Ten AT ski boots and 5 alpine ski boots were tested in 8 models of alpine ski bindings using an ASTM F504-05 (2012) apparatus. Thirty-one percent of the AT boots released appropriately when used in alpine ski bindings. One alpine binding released appropriately for all alpine and AT boots tested; 2 alpine ski bindings did not release appropriately for any AT boots. Altering the visual indicator settings on the bindings (that control the release torque of an alpine system) had little or no effect on the release torque when using AT boots in alpine ski bindings. Many combinations released appropriately in ski shop tests, but did not release appropriately in the more complex loading cases that simulated forward and backward falls; the simple tests performed by ski shops could produce a “false-negative” test result. These results indicate that using AT boots with alpine ski bindings could increase the likelihood of lower leg injuries.

OK who can get me a full text of this? Hope they cited this thread

ETA full text is available as an inclusion in the guys dissertation available free here: https://digital.lib.washington.edu/r...=1&isAllowed=y

[XXX-er]

you don't need to be that exact

[Meadow Skipper]

you don't need to be that exact

What are you, a telemarker?

[XXX-er]

recovering ^^ eh

and i still have a screw in my ankle to prove it

actualy with all the love for minimalist/ weight weenir rando bindings

i was being facetious

[Meadow Skipper]

recovering ^^ eh

and i still have a screw in my ankle to prove it

actualy with all the love for minimalist/ weight weenir rando bindings

i was being facetious

I know.