GUNS!!!!!!!!

[Loon]

What I am wondering is why support guys who will probably never have to shoot past 200 yds get the m16s, and the infantry grunts get m4s for patrols where engagements are rarely under 200m. As for size, you don't get out of vehicals a lot on a foot patrol. Mounted units can still use M4s, that's what a carbine is for. Infantry needs a rifle though.

The 5.56 round is fine; the current ball sucks. A lightwieght LP cartridge would work fine. 5.56 can stop a guy, it just needs to be put in the right place.
Also consider the weight difference between 7.62 and 5.56. each guy can only carry so much.

The marksmanship training comment was dead on, very little training is done past 300 meters. This is fine for the M4, with the current 855 ball, that is about the limit. An m16 can go further.

There is a great need for squad size elements to be able to engage the enemy beyond 300 meters especially in Afghanistan. The infantry has been screaming about this for years now.

7.62 is the shit, now I'd go to war with that.

Yes people who get hit with a 7.62 round tend to fall down and die as to keep trying to kill you which is often the case with 5.56

[XavierD]

Loon, how many people have you shot with 5.56 that kept firing?

[TNKen]

At one point, there was some war theory that you really didn't want to kill the person outright, but just mess them up to take additional soldiers out of action by rendering first aid to the wounded. When you don't give a shit about your brother in arms, doesn't seem to give much credence.

[leroy jenkins]

Someone sent me a link to this thread of pics of cartel weapons captured by the mexican government. I've only looked through the first few pages, but there is some interesting stuff and the sheer number of guns is staggering. Definitely some things you wouldnt expect to see, and definitely a lot of things that were never sold in any US gun shop. Lot's of old m16s and a decent number of 40mm grenade launchers that were almost surely mexican military property.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...-%28updates%29

[Jer]

Loon, how many people have you shot with 5.56 that kept firing?

Y'know - although 5.56 is a much smaller cartridge, it is pretty devestating at least from a hydrostatic shock standpoint. And it does penetrate armor better than the larger 7.62 bullet.

I have never shot anybody with a 5.56, but I've talked to several people who have shot people with both 5.56x45 and 7.62x51. Concensus is that unless you hit the nerve center, The Man In The Black Pajamas will get back up or at least continue firing. Hit him in the arm or leg with the m-14 and he pretty much stayed down.

This is all conjecture, but if I were in Afghanistan or anywhere where 200+ meter shots were the norm I'd much prefer 7.62 NATO. Most of those guys aren't wearing armor and 7.62 handles windage much better. Sure with 5.56 you can carry twice as much ammo and any kind of burst or full-auto fire with 7.62 NATO is pretty much uncontrollable, but IMO spraying and praying at 200+ meters is useless.

[Loon]

Loon, how many people have you shot with 5.56 that kept firing?

I have been shot at by at least 2 or 3 (probably more) motherfuckers that have had 5.56 round put into or through them.

[rugbydave]

That 5.56 vs 7.62 argument has been going on forever on the gun forums. The issue is mainly with the shorter barrelled 5.56 rifles (M4 or C8 here in Canada). The end result of the shorter barrels is decreased muzzle velocity and therefore lower lethality as the 5.56 round requires a minimum particular velocity (numbers escape me now) in order to fragment in soft tissue, thereby causing a fatal wound. the current ball ammo was designed to deal with armoured soldiers, a legacy of the cold war and is less effective against unarmoured opponents. It's less of a problem for the Marines and the Canadian Army as the standard issue weapon still has a 20" barrel, unlike the Army's 14.5" M4s. The Marines have just recently made a large purchase of new 5.56 ammo called SOST that was developed by and for SOCOM. The Army is developing some sorta environmentally friendly round with enhanced lethality but it keeps failing in testing...

As far as the M14EBR, that's one rad rifle. Personally, I'd prefer the USMC's M14 DMR vs the Army's M14 EBR simply because I prefer the lighter fibreglass stock of the DMR vs the Sage aluminium stock on the EBR. That and it has a heavier profile barrel than the stock. Both are pretty sweet for their purposes though, engaging opponents at ranges outside those of the standard issue rifles (past 200-300m)

[Stone-Free]

The Army announced today it has begun shipping its new 5.56mm cartridge, the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round, to support warfighters in Afghanistan.





That thing looks pissed. Probably not the answer, but a start anyways...

http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/06/23...home-ata71-img

[waxman]

I have been shot at by at least 2 or 3 (probably more) motherfuckers that have had 5.56 round put into or through them.

then shoot them again, ammo is cheap

[Jer]

I'm looking to buy one of these monsters:



..in 7mm08. The .44 mag knocks down the rams pretty well, but it's not ridiculous enough.

[XavierD]

I have been shot at by at least 2 or 3 (probably more) motherfuckers that have had 5.56 round put into or through them.

Scary for sure. Were you using the 855 ball? I still have faith in the 5.56 just not that round. The 855A1 looks even less inspiring. Tree hugers trying to make bullets 'healthy' by removing the lead.

[Loon]

We were using whatever they issued the Army in 2003-2005. Sorry for the thing but I have been in situations where I believe 7.62 is the answer.

I was just talking to an old gun nut and he said that when the Army was deciding between the FAL and the M16 they were both 7.62 but the army scalled it down to 5.56 so soilders could carry more ammo. Not sure if hes right but hes forgoten more gun facts than I'll ever know.

[XavierD]

I can more then understand the frustration of being shot at by people you just shot.

I think it was the 855 then, which I think what we are given now (green tips).

I have heard many stories about why the army decided on 5.56, everything from caring more rounds, to allowing smaller soldiers and women to fire it. Apparently all the women in the infantry can't handle the recoil of 7.62.

I have seen some wounds caused by Low Penetrating 5.56 rounds that would be lethal anywhere on the torso. Not sure if these would be legal per Geneva, but they are deadly.

[MakersTeleMark]

Transfer question:

I need to transfer 3 handguns and 2 long guns from NY to CO. I know I need an FFL on my side, but can the transferor just FexEd Ground it to my FFL, or do they have to ship through a FFL on their side?

Also, I heard that there might be a bit more hassle due to the number of handguns; true?

Thanks.

[TNKen]

Transfer question:

I need to transfer 3 handguns and 2 long guns from NY to CO. I know I need an FFL on my side, but can the transferor just FexEd Ground it to my FFL, or do they have to ship through a FFL on their side?

Also, I heard that there might be a bit more hassle due to the number of handguns; true?

Thanks.

Yes, out of state transfers must go through a FFL. Shipping does not require a FFL to assist, unfortunatley, most postal/shipping stations do require an FFL to do the shipping. USPS will have a cow if a non-licensed person tries to ship, especially a handgun. I have had good success with Federal Express on some very high dollar weapons.

If NY has some rule about one gun per month, or a special permit, your dealer may have to sit on them for each appropriate time period then transfer, or wait until you have the necessary permits in hand.

If it is through an inheritance or some special situation, there may be some exemptions.

Good luck.

BTW, what kind of guns??



Ken

[MakersTeleMark]

Thanks, Ken.

It is through inheritance.

Not too sure about the collection. I've fondled them, but there are a couple I don't know anything about.

tiny 22 semi auto. Half the size of my palm;
S&W 357mag wheel gun;
looks to be eastern euro/russian 9mm semi auto;
ancient single shot 22 rifle;
870 12 ga rifled barrel with scope.

I'll post some pics when I get them and maybe you all can help with identification.

[Loon]

I'm looking to buy one of these monsters:



..in 7mm08. The .44 mag knocks down the rams pretty well, but it's not ridiculous enough.

The 7mm08 is actually common choice up here (AK) for sheep/goat hunters. Most op for the 16" barrel so they "legally" have the option to put a but stock on it (you know for when they teach their daughters how to shoot). Strange how the ridiculous can be the norm in this state.

[Parvo]

Disassembled my Kel-Tec P11 last night and noticed the ejector is broken. haven't shot it in a while, but it's got a lifetime warranty so it'll get fixed no problem. But it's my favorite carry piece, now i have to lug around either the 1911 (slim profile so nobody knows) or the Glock 23 which imprints pretty noticeably. Or walk around unarmed like some type of British subject.

[Jer]

The 7mm08 is actually common choice up here (AK) for sheep/goat hunters.

OK - what about 45/70 Gov't? That should prove I'm a real man.

I'd probably get a 14" bbl. I think there's some IHMSA regulation about that.

I've also gotta see about getting your avatar inked on me somewhere - that is a kick-ass loon!

[Loon]

Your not going to believe it but the guy that sits next to me at the office has one in 45-70. Uses it for black bear. Says its manageable as long as your not shooting high power loads. Freaking sourdoughs they're truely a different breed. ITS AK BABY, GO BIG OR GO HOME!

[The Reverend Floater]

Just shot a suppressed, decked out M4 with a bunch of SEALS...the thing was stupid accurate to the point where my lady coworker was racking headshots at 200 yards, no problem. It also had one of those dope "red dot" sights mounted on top of the scope. I could use that and get 3 shots to the 25 yard target in less than two seconds, then use the scope and hit the 200 yard target a second later. It was fun.

[carvedog]

Just shot a suppressed, decked out M4 with a bunch of SEALS...the thing was stupid accurate to the point where my lady coworker was racking headshots at 200 yards, no problem. It also had one of those dope "red dot" sights mounted on top of the scope. I could use that and get 3 shots to the 25 yard target in less than two seconds, then use the scope and hit the 200 yard target a second later. It was fun.

Sounds fun. This is not in Blaine i presume unless some security detail type thing left over from the big show is slumming around.

Ohio Gulch?

[Jer]

Here's some stuff I've been doing/been thinking of doing:

Handgun Sniper Challenge - like regular sniper stalk shoots but with large-bore silhouette handguns. Natural rests are allowed.

.22 2x4 - shoot at 6 pieces of 2" wide 4" tall angle iron at 50-200 meters. First target (50-65 meters) must be shot standing, second target (65-85 meters) must be shot sitting, third target (85-110 meters) must be shot prone no bipod. All other targets can be shot with bipod or rest. Shoot until all targets are knocked over.

Simo Hayha Biathlon - like regular Biathlon but with Nordic Touring gear and mil-surp rifles and ammo. Steel human silhouettes from 200-800 meters. Iron sights only, no bipods,rangers or milling.

Combat Clays - like sporting clays, but the clays are thrown directly at you and you don't get to call "pull".

I've been doing the first two for awhile - I was gonna try #3 last winter but I never got the silhouettes cut out and the snow done melted.

[Loon]

#4 sounds dangerous, both for the shooter and his buddy whipping clays at him.

[BakerBoy]

Buying a handgun, looking heavy at a Glock. Question is, 19 or 22? Discuss...

BTW, leaning towards the 22 quite a bit. Really want the .45 GAP, but I'd like to shoot the gun often...