Teton conditions....'07/'08

[schwerty]

Figured a thread for the Teton region conditions might be in order. No reports from me...I've been fishin' and the snow is dissappearing!

www.jhsnowobs.org is back online, BTW.

[rideit]

Oy Vay, we could have a shitshow this year.
Or not.

[homemadesalsa]

Checking in, have still been biking. Rode Wendell's pink bike cutoff in Horseshoe (got an inch worth of mud) then up the road towards Packsaddle. Put in the tvtap kiosk in the Horseshoe parking lot. May be heading up to have a look at some of the proposed Jackpine/ Pinochle trails tomorrow (sunday).

Anyway it has still been pretty warm down low. I bet there are some nice facets on the north sides up high as it has been getting quite cold at night.

thanks for starting the thread. I'll try to post as i find things.
lw

[rideit]

Hey, HMS, did you drop the dime to Brigid on the 'titties' photos? (It was all about the Grand, I swear!)
Anyhoo, I just rode pink bike (training wheels) to 'Labor Day', which is the new one that traverses from Bovine to C-Lock...have you ridden that yet? It is the BEST way up to S.B.! It is good to ride now, a lil' greasy, but totally ridable. Get out there! (sorry for the thread drift, andy!)

[schwerty]

Rideit - don't be sorry about getting away from the snow conditions. Hell, I'm fishing, full time...outside of working of course. I can't offer a damn thing other than agreeing with Homeadesalsa that there are plenty of facets growing on North slopes...but that was the purpose of the thread. Most TGR mags prolly won't even read this.... I agree that we are in for another intersting season. Keep it safe!

One of these days you should enlighten me on your one of your trails. I don't bike but would give it a shot if it doesn't involve fucking up my cast .

[skibuminwyo]

how much snow is left up high? all i can say for north of yous guys, we are fucked for the season. its been too hot, too many facets developing, we are on track for how we were last year, which means, not alot of skiing.

[rideit]

Well, a lot of skiing, just not a lot of....interesting skiing.

[skibuminwyo]

so i should be prepared with my flyrod instead of my skis when i get down there?

[schwerty]

so i should be prepared with my flyrod instead of my skis when i get down there?

Looks like we may get a storm Thursday or Friday. I'd plan on slinging the fly line if I were you.

[homemadesalsa]

Rideit I gotta say that i did drop the dime on you- you mighta been a little outof line on that one, even if it was staring you in the face. And B did show me that cutoff over to Channel Lock- very nice- I like to park at the lower lot- more shade- and don't like to ride the road so it's an excellent option. Did you read my trails committee email- we do need to placate Jay a bit so that he decides NOT to implement the ruling that makes all off-trail bike travel illegal.

I hope that www.jhsnowobs.org works this winter. I had some major problems with it the last couple of years - it wouldn't let me post with either Firefox or Safari or IE- just spin and spin. I tried to get with Tom to fix it but couldn't make it happen. Too bad- we put a lot of work into it and when it works it's a fabulous resource.

Long range weather looks like storm next weekend.

[FREESKIER_FIVE-0]

I hope that this year is just a late winter. Start dumping mid december and not let off until march. I kinda wish it would either, (a) melt before it snows again, or (b) rain before it snows. It the Winds, down low it seems that everything is covered in facets. It makes me want to cry.

But la nina should be good, eh?

Pray for snow...

[Bart T]

41 degrees on JH tram site at 9:00 am this morning!!!

i have been mulling over a tour in garnet canyon for tomorrow to hit some of the north aspects, assuming the snow looks ok when we get up there.

[El Kanone]

BY SKIBUMINWYO "how much snow is left up high? all i can say for north of yous guys, we are fucked for the season. its been too hot, too many facets developing, "

I try not to be too nitpicky, but I just have to respond to this. It is the fluctuation between day time temps and COLD nights that will form facets at the bottom of the snowpack. Warm temps will in fact help to break down or "round" the facets. The ground stays at the same temp just about all winter about 31 deg F. The facets form from water vapor growing on the snow crystal driven by the difference between the constant ground temp and fluctuating air temp. The basic point is that cold night time temps are more to blame for facet growth, not warm days.

If your warm temp and facet comments were two seperate observations as to why you are fucked then sorry.

[Trackhead]

Deleted to keep the Tetons free and pure of extraneous stuff.

[upallnight]

Hmmm.........I remember a certain TR from one of your locals that was interesting.

TH: rideit's comment was more than a bit retarded (saying that last year didn't offer up alot of interesting skiing)--or maybe the better word is simply "unaware", and i'm not sure where he's supplied knowledgeable info about the snowpack (now or in the past). the post-count:BC skiing ratio is pretty darn high.

he's said before that he doesn't have knowledge about that sort of thing (which makes the posts in this thread all the more curious). the should-have-been-PMs about biking only serve to make a thread like this even less useful than it otherwise would be. you post alot...but maybe posting in a snow condition/avy thread might not be your strong-suit. i know, i know...just cuz it says 'teton' in the title doesn't mean you HAVE to post in it.

then again, as schwerty said, we know that there's another place where these kinds of obs get posted -- and it's relevant info when it's there. i think the quiet, word-of-mouth nature to sharing info on the region is not terribly likely to shift.

go ahead and flame me for it -- but i think my comments are worthwhile if one's intent is to create a meaningful thread where knowledgeable people share info. if there's too much extraneous stuff, the baby will get thrown out with the bath water. if people don't know what a pit profile is -- or tests and how to use them, along with posting things like location, elevation, aspect... then i tend to think they should be doing more reading than writing.

there are enough avy professionals and avid BC folks that post up in that "other" place...without the distraction -- and you can get good info fast.

just my thoughts. i'll go back to lurking on this.

[Bart T]

has anyone been successful with creating a new account at jhsnowobs? i tried a few times and kept getting error messages.

[schwerty]

My point to starting this thread was more so aimed at giving the few people here that use that "other" site a heads up that it is back up from summer break. Didn't really expect it to go the direction of pit profiles etc... Nothing wrong with people posting that info though, IMO.

I agree with you UAN, the "shift" of knowledge and shared info is not going to shift to the TGR board. However, discussion on the topic, (as long as it's between people who have the knowledge to be sharing in the first place), could aid in the safER bc skiing for all who read the thread.

It seems strange to me that most of the TR's here say nothing regarding the snowpack and the Slide Zone forum is not used all that much. Doesn't mean I am gonna post all of my pit profiles and every observation I make though... Hopefully we all have a safe season!

Oh, because this thread has been straying from the original topic...I am cooking a pork shoulder in the crock pot and it smells fuckin' wonrderful.




I'll be sure to post a Pork Profile after dinner.

[rideit]

UAN, sorry, but you blatantly overinterpreted my comment. I was simply referring to classic 'fast/steep/deep' skiing, it was not a blanket enditement of the touring opportunities, they abound. I get out in the b/c ~40 days a season (for the last 15 years or so). I may not be a snow guru, and I know ther is always more to learn, but I DO know a little bit. After 4 years in the San Juans, and 10 here, I have seen a LOT of different situations.
I'm sorry if my comments came off little silly or from the hip, but in the last few years I have lost so many friends to Avies, I simply don't go out when it is questionable, (If I can determine that).
I hope that clarifies something, if anything.

[upallnight]

My point to starting this thread was more so aimed at giving the few people here that use that "other" site a heads up that it is back up from summer break. Didn't really expect it to go the direction of pit profiles etc... Nothing wrong with people posting that info though, IMO.

i don't think it necessarily has to be that info -- but many/most of the people on that 'other' site are known -- and we know they know what they're doing. so...if people post random stuff here, it quickly becomes futile to sift through the crap. no need for pit profiles, per se, but if someone doesn't even know what data to collect, then my point is that it's hard to even trust their "summary data."

However, discussion on the topic, (as long as it's between people who have the knowledge to be sharing in the first place), could aid in the safER bc skiing for all who read the thread.

fully agree, but that "as long as" is a big "IF".

It seems strange to me that most of the TR's here say nothing regarding the snowpack and the Slide Zone forum is not used all that much.

tons of discussion on this. one side says TRs are for entertainment only (ie don't bog it down with the FBI's do-not-copy-this-DVD disclaimer); the other says that not providing such info is encouraging newbies to repeat what you did without knowing the analysis that went into it.

i think there's a happy medium, but i no longer care much about it as i once did.

anyway, the thread is drifting further afield. i mainly wanted to make the point that there is a ton of space for useless posts, but a post that attempts to make things safer and maybe save a life is really ONE place that those who don't know from first-hand experience could refrain from posting.

[upallnight]

UAN, sorry, but you blatantly overinterpreted my comment. I was simply referring to classic 'fast/steep/deep' skiing, it was not a blanket enditement of the touring opportunities, they abound. I get out in the b/c ~40 days a season (for the last 15 years or so). I may not be a snow guru, and I know ther is always more to learn, but I DO know a little bit. After 4 years in the San Juans, and 10 here, I have seen a LOT of different situations.
I'm sorry if my comments came off little silly or from the hip, but in the last few years I have lost so many friends to Avies, I simply don't go out when it is questionable, (If I can determine that).
I hope that clarifies something, if anything.

it certainly does help...but while you're saying i 'blatantly overinterpreted' your statement, you fail to realize that we see ALL of the stuff you post. last year, you had a bunch of posts asking people to go out and tour and trying to learn from them. they probably should have been PMs. it implied that you don't have much knowledge.

if you're adding the above information to the mix, then that changes things. how are we supposed to know?

when you go out in the BC, what type of info do you gather and what tests do you use? do you document it?

i'm not trying to be an ass (it comes naturally! ;-)), i'm honestly just trying to figure out how one should interpret the information that you do post. for instance, if someone goes out into the BC and reports back some info and it lacks details (not to pick on you, but your stuff is rarely 1st-hand and rarely detailed, so it falls into that category), i just want to know whether to heed or ignore it.

if it's rod newcomb making a comment, i pay attention... but we don't know you from adam. please enlighten us.

ltos of poeple go out into the BC on lots of days....and many of them have no training/knowledge....and MOST of them survive. going out often and coming back alive doesn't necessarily mean someone is good -- it can mean we are lucky. i want to be able to separate the good & lucky, from the merely lucky.

how about sticking to posting in this thread info that will keep people safe? that's clearly the goal we all want.

[upallnight]

I simply don't go out when it is questionable, (If I can determine that).

ps...comments like the above make me wonder...as basically every day i am out i see signs that make things "questionable".

full-on, green-light days for "fun" (steep) terrain are rare. how do you (yes, you, personally) determine when things are "questionable" or not?

[rideit]

Hence my comment, "If I can determine that". Because it is never an exact science, as you well know.
There are almost always 'signs', then it is a matter of risk assesment, pure and simple.
IIRC,The only thread that I posted in last year asking for some teaching was to my friend, Homemade, who happens to be one of the most reknowned snow scientists on the planet...seems like I could learn something, don't you agree?

O.K.,Let's get back to this thread topic.
I went out and hiked Targhee in October.
There was tons of snow, and it was very stable.
Then it got warm, and south facing aspects completely melted off, leaving a bunch of rapidly decomposing snow on north and N.E. aspects.
I have not gone since, due to this situation.
I did not go and measure the crystals, I didn't need to..it is fairly obvious (to me) that we are lookng at a repeat of last season in terms of unstable surface snow.
What more is there really to add as of this point?
Not too much.

Personally, I would rather admit to not knowing everything, regardless of whatever experience that I may or may not have, than assuming that I am some sort of expert. (not insinuating that you feel that you are).

Last season I hit Plummer, Baldy, Oliver, Taylor, 25 short, Beards, Relay Ridge, Glory ~dozen times, Windy ridge, Columbia bowl, Blacks, Housetop, Eddington Canyon, (alta dena), do-it chutes, Great White, side-country @ the village, Peaked-Teton Canyon, Table, etc...I think I can at least participate in a discussion of regional BC conditions. Color me Naive, I guess I have to get written up in Coulior in order to have a valid opinion.
I still owe you breakfast for those Neil albums, BTW.
Thanks.
I think we should just start a new thread without all of this extraneous noise, does anyone else agree?

[upallnight]

Hence my comment, "If I can determine that". Because it is never an exact science, as you well know.
There are almost always 'signs', then it is a matter of risk assesment, pure and simple.

y'know... you haven't added any new info to help us change our assessment.

[schwerty]

Damn, can you 2 get over this? I'm asking for 1 very simple reason...if ANYONE is basing their judgements in the backcountry on something they read on the intrtaweb, (here or "there....Newcomb, or not), they should likely not be out there t begin with, unless they are with a guide or qualifed party focusing on instructing. So, who cares if Rideit doesn't have backlogs of 20 years of pit profiles. And, who cares what someone else thinks about your skills...keeping yourself safe is your own responsibility and Rideit, you seem to be doing just fine.
UAN - I agree with most of your comments. Have you skied with Rideit? Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity but I know plenty of folks that he knows and has likely skied with. If he has taken in an ounce of knowledge from any of these people...snow professionals, guides, and generally knowledgable skiers he has probably skied with....I'd sure trust him in the bc and would also respect his comments on conditions. Not trying to bash ya and take Rideit's side. Sounds like you know what your talking about... Just wanted to thrown in my .02

So, how about posting general Teton region conditions and observations in the new thread? Take posts for what you think they are worth....and make your own judgements and obs based on your time in the field..not someone elses. We can keep the pit profiles and in depth obs to the www.jhsnowobs.com . Great site and an even better resource. No reason why a Teton thread on TGR can't be a good resource as well. If you don't feel someone is qualified to be reporting by a comment or lack of factual data then toss it out and read on.

[SuperGaper]

UAN

Give it a rest, it is fucking TGR. Like Schwerty said- if your are looking for your beta here, you a got a problem.