This bums me out... wide angle

[Big E]

I believe one thing you want to do is switch the "Color Representation" over to Adobe RGB. I saw some insanely complicated (to my feeble brain) seminar on digital color, and the one thing I got out of it is that you should never use sRGB when taking the pics. I think it compresses the color palette or something along those lines.

edit - wow, I was actually right! See here... http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...obeRGB1998.htm

[Tippster]

Unless you're a freakin' PS guru I would highly recommend getting a Film Emulator plugin for Photoshop - this one is supposedly a good one: http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/index.html It has preset masks that will give your image the look of a whole range of films, including just about all films by Fuji, Agfa, and Kodak (but also some really awesome B&W masks.)

As far as your Creek shot goes I would have bracketed the shot a 1/2 stop. Also, there's absolutely no reason to shoot at 800ISO in broad daylight, and the extra DoF provided by th f/18 is only applicable if you had set the camera on the rocks to get a very close object to show the DoF. For a scene where most objects (if not all, as in this case) are at least 6ft from the focal plane an aperture of 5.6 or 8.0 would have been plenty, thus allowing you to shoot at a less noisy 100ISO.

What did you meter on? The rocks? I would meter off a gray card or use a handheld incidence meter (with the dome) then overexposed by a stop to get some shadow detail, dodging the blown out rocks in Post.

[Pura Vida]

I showed this to the owner of the local shop, and he told me to not use manual, ever.

Does anyone know where the anti-manual "advice" started from? I think Ken Rockwell offers similar adivce on his 20D page.

The only use I've found for the non-manual settings is when I hand it over to someone who's never used the camera before to take a shot.

Even if you are complete photo JONG it seems manual would still be best when you are trying to learn, as most likely playing around with it you will actually learn what exactly the camera is capturing and how it does it. When I hear people bitching about how their new 20D etc is worse then thieir dinky P+S, most often using they are using the auto or even "semi-auto" settings and once the figure out "manual" they end up with what they were looking for.

[pechelman]

I dont really get the full manual thing on a DSLR or an SLR.

just shoot on aperature or shutter priority
dial in the thing thats most important to you, and then just have the EV setting at whatever +/- you want it to be and it will automatically change the other setting.

just like manual, but smarter and faster and automagic

[Pura Vida]

I dont really get the full manual thing on a DSLR or an SLR.

just shoot on aperature or shutter priority
dial in the thing thats most important to you, and then just have the EV setting at whatever +/- you want it to be and it will automatically change the other setting.

just like manual, but smarter and faster and automagic

Depends on the situation. Maybe it's just habit, but I shoot the vast majority in full manual and never found it very time consuming. Seem to end up with a better end product for me at least. Personal prefrence?

[Eldo]

What did you meter on? The rocks? I would meter off a gray card or use a handheld incidence meter (with the dome) then overexposed by a stop to get some shadow detail, dodging the blown out rocks in Post.

I respectfully disagree.

If you need to choose, expose for highlights, never shadows. Blown highlights cannot be burned back in because there is no digital information to work with. But there is still hidden information in shadows.

Shoot RAW, at the lowest ISO possible, to get the most out of your camera's dynamic range. sRGB JPEGs would be the worst setup for that particular scene.

[summit]

^I tend to agree with Eldo (unless it is a rare situation where almost everything is shadow)

I dont really get the full manual thing on a DSLR or an SLR.

just shoot on aperature or shutter priority
dial in the thing thats most important to you, and then just have the EV setting at whatever +/- you want it to be and it will automatically change the other setting.

just like manual, but smarter and faster and automagic

If you are good and you aren't in rapidly changing light, you can walk around and just know what settings to use and have better results that always metering off what you think is neutral grey or constantly trying to guess where to set your EC. Instead you can meter off those items and use them to check yourself so you continue to get better.

I shoot in full manual 90% of the time.

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

[Tippster]

As long as you stay within a stop (and these rocks are nowhere near "white" - aka ~100 IRE) you can overexpose and pull it down in post. This keeps the blacks from getting noisy when you pull them up using your method.

Once your highlights truly reach max levels you are absolutely right - blown out = gone.

[Tippster]

I dont really get the full manual thing on a DSLR or an SLR.

just shoot on aperature or shutter priority
dial in the thing thats most important to you, and then just have the EV setting at whatever +/- you want it to be and it will automatically change the other setting.

just like manual, but smarter and faster and automagic

Because sometimes your meter is wrong, or the result isn't what you had in mind. 2 pix of the same scene, one shot in Av and one in shot TV should be the same exposure, one (Aperture) merely controls the DoF and the other how any motion in the frame is frozen. by the time you change the EV you could have changed the Aperture or Exposure. If I have the time to fully set up a shot I'll almost always shoot on Manual.

[pechelman]

If you are good and you aren't in rapidly changing light, you can walk around and just know what settings to use and have better results that always metering off what you think is neutral grey or constantly trying to guess where to set your EC. Instead you can meter off those items and use them to check yourself so you continue to get better.

thats what I do, i guess i just let the camera do 1/3rd of that so I have one less knob\wheel to turn. I also do the guessing game thing.

then i use the EC to balance what im metering off of, ie how far its off from 18%. Usually its faster\easier for me to click the EC wheel a couple turns than it is to wheel all the way to the right stop\shutter to get that same EC.
generally speaking, I do most of my shooting on aperture priority as I dont do a lot of akshun.

im still biased by my experience to say that its more efficient to shoot on shutter or aperture priority rather than full manual. I always wondered if there was some sort of ego macho thing involved with saying "I Shot this on full manual". Not saying thats the case here.

Ive got an SLR so I dont have to shoot in full manual like my other cameras.
I enjoy the full manual experience of physically cocking the shutter, turning the lever thats physically attached to the iris, and turning the spring if I need a timer on my old MF's, but thats really not the point of an SLR type camera for me.

guess alot boils down to preference, subject matter, and camera layout.

[pechelman]

Because sometimes your meter is wrong, or the result isn't what you had in mind. 2 pix of the same scene, one shot in Av and one in shot TV should be the same exposure, one (Aperture) merely controls the DoF and the other how any motion in the frame is frozen. by the time you change the EV you could have changed the Aperture or Exposure. If I have the time to fully set up a shot I'll almost always shoot on Manual.

thanks for clarifying what those priorities do, i had no idea

I go into every shot in either priority, usually aperture, with the intent of knowing Ill probably need to nudge the thumbwheel on the back one or two clicks. to me its a lot faster than manual.

really i think we're shooting the same way, just by utilizing different functions

even when i shoot film at night, and have to worry about reciprocity effects, im still shooting in the priority mode, and i just swing the EV to where I know it needs to be. so basically manual i guess. the benefit here is that its just a few clicks rather than racing accross the entire shutter\stop range to get where you need it to be.

again i just think it boils down to how i shoot and this is the method that really seems to work best for me.

[Eldo]

As long as you stay within a stop (and these rocks are nowhere near "white" - aka ~100 IRE) you can overexpose and pull it down in post. This keeps the blacks from getting noisy when you pull them up using your method...

Right you are. I thought your "open up a stop from grey card" was general exposure advice, and not specific to this particular scene. Humblest apologies.

You should try shooting our mayor, not an easy asignment with the dark suits he wears and all the highlights off his forehead.

[Bawheed]

I dont really get the full manual thing on a DSLR or an SLR.

just shoot on aperature or shutter priority
dial in the thing thats most important to you, and then just have the EV setting at whatever +/- you want it to be and it will automatically change the other setting.

just like manual, but smarter and faster and automagic

I'm partial to shooting manual with a handheld incident meter, ie: I shoot manual 99% of the time. I just don't like the camera making decisions for me.

Do you just want to take pictures, or do you want to learn the craft?

[Pura Vida]

I shoot manual 99% of the time. I just don't like the camera making decisions for me.

Do you just want to take pictures, or do you want to learn the craft?

Bingo. Shooting on full manual is not some chest beating nonsense. I can't really think of any times I see people dick waving about it, just figured most people did for the most part after they moved past their first P+S.

[pechelman]

this is retarded

Im using the camera as a meter
I meter on what I want to be exposed how i want it to be exposed and set my ev accordingly AFTER i set my aperture.

do you all want a cookie because you're more core than I am when using an SLR that has a built in meter. You might as well just be using one of my old medium format cameras. Some of this logic is retarded, and you're taking a step backward. Learn to use the meter in your camera, understand its limitations, and how it meters things, and youre then setup to need to take one less peice of gear, need one more battery, or worry about damaging your meter when you really dont need one. For critical shooting, or for shooting in a studio, separate meters make a lot of sense because you can leave your camera where it is and meter off what you want...i do this myself sometimes. big deal.

the only "decision" im letting my camera make for me is to put it near the shutter time i want

When you shoot manually, do you completely ignore what the camera meter says? NO!
You use that info to make your own decisions.

SIMILARLY, I do the same, but instead of using Full Manual Dickwaiving, I take the more efficient route, for me and my camera, and use EC.

WTF is wrong with some of you people. Thanks for the insult bahweed.
Ill remember that the next time I look at the photos I printed in the darkroom hanging on my wall that arent worthy of the craft called photography.

edit: it seems its an issue of
You have to shoot in Manual to make your own decisions vs I take advantage of the camera functions to get me close first, and then use EC to vary shutter.
The way my camera works in manual, aperture is on the forefinger wheel and shutter on the thumbwheel. In Shutter or Aperture priority, one of those is on the forefinger while "the other", which is really just EC, is on the thumbwheel. I really dont see the difference other than one saying M vs Av vs Tv.

[Tippster]

thanks for clarifying what those priorities do, i had no idea

I should have been clear in addressing my comment to the OP. Obviously you know what you're doing and why. Not everyone who owns a DSLR does.

I go into every shot in either priority, usually aperture, with the intent of knowing Ill probably need to nudge the thumbwheel on the back one or two clicks. to me its a lot faster than manual.

really i think we're shooting the same way, just by utilizing different functions

True. I wasn't saying what you were doing is wrong, it did seem that you scoffed at Manual use of cams, which is sorta ignorant IMHO.

even when i shoot film at night, and have to worry about reciprocity effects, im still shooting in the priority mode, and i just swing the EV to where I know it needs to be. so basically manual i guess. the benefit here is that its just a few clicks rather than racing accross the entire shutter\stop range to get where you need it to be.

That makes no sense to me. One click = 1/3 stop, no? 1 click on the thumb wheel or trigger wheel = one stop or the next shutter speed. What's the difference? You also get feedback in the VF regarding what the meter thinks of your decision, so you make a more informed choice, no?

again i just think it boils down to how i shoot and this is the method that really seems to work best for me.

No doubt - no offense intended by any means.

BTW - the camera meter is a reflective meter, as you know. It will give you a reading to change whatever it is metering to Neutral Gray if shown in a gray scale and you're making an evaluation that the scene needs over or under exposure relative to that information to make a correct exposure. This decision can be affected by many things: your eye can be fooled, you can focus your attention on one part of the scene and forget another, etc. Supposedly Nikon's Matrix Metering comes closest to Incident light meters in coming up with a correct exposure. I guess my distrust of Built-in meters comes from back in the day when I was taking Photo classes on a very limited budget with a mid-level camera. Old habits n'shit.

Nice thing about Digicams is you can look down and check your exposure right away... to a point.

[pechelman]

1 click for me is half a stop on my film slr and also 1click on whatever wheel is half a stop.
so its really the same thing for me. (elan IIe)

Im not scoffing at manual cameras, because I love them, and have quite a few.
I guess I just dont "get" having a 3000$ slr that has all these nice conveniences that photographers have wanted for YEARS that you neglect and dont use.

"Its all in the VF"
I guess its the fact that a lot of the digi cams are setup to make you change EV\EC in some odd menu, but mine just makes it really intuitive that you're changing the "other" setting from your priority. I sorta see your point about "directly" changing and making the "informed" decisions, but to me its a non-ambiguous change and I know what im doing when I click that "EC" wheel over. Can I add more "quotation". "I think so"

eta: I guess I should also mention that a lot of the times with the things I shoot and the film I shoot, my meter seems to be just where I want. Generally speaking, I might braket something, but its not off by more than about half a stop, and when you get to develop and print your own negatives, its really not a big deal at all to "correct". (esp with the more forgiving emulsions, ie not slides)
Changing light also makes this method a lot more favorable for when im doing macro work outside or something.

i got a little over-excited int hat last post
just frustating when people dont get my points
thanks for the logical\reasoned response tipp (as usual)

[Bawheed]

this is retarded
do you all want a cookie because you're more core than I am when using an SLR that has a built in meter. You might as well just be using one of my old medium format cameras.

For my personal shooting I shoot 6x6 and 4x5 slides so it's imperative that I know how to set shit up manually... this style of shooting transfers over to 35mm for me too. My 35mm shots usually involve flash work, so again, manually entering the apperture/shutter speed is a necessity for me. This isn't dick waving, just how I like to shoot... it is hard to avoid coming across as a dick waver when you make a statements like "I shoot MF and LF" etc, but I'm not trying to wave the cock. I am a slow shooter though, that's for sure.

Some of this logic is retarded, and you're taking a step backward. Learn to use the meter in your camera, understand its limitations, and how it meters things, and youre then setup to need to take one less peice of gear, need one more battery, or worry about damaging your meter when you really dont need one. For critical shooting, or for shooting in a studio, separate meters make a lot of sense because you can leave your camera where it is and meter off what you want...i do this myself sometimes. big deal.

Reflective meters are a pain in my arse, and the last thing I want to do is think of "zones" when i'm shooting. Incident metering is much faster for me a good deal of the time, and there's less thought process/worrying about if that +2 stops I just dialed in with EC is going to be enough or not enough depending on what the meter is seeing at the time of exposure. My incident meter tells me the proper exposure for the light falling on the subject right there and then. Working this way takes the worry out of proper exposure for me, and as a result, I haven't had to cull a slide due to improper exposure in a good few years now, and this stokes me out.

When you shoot manually, do you completely ignore what the camera meter says? NO!
You use that info to make your own decisions.

I don't even look at what the camera meter is saying. How's that for dick waving

WTF is wrong with some of you people. Thanks for the insult bahweed.
Ill remember that the next time I look at the photos I printed in the darkroom hanging on my wall that arent worthy of the craft called photography.

Insult, seriously? Sorry you took it that way.

edit: it seems its an issue of
You have to shoot in Manual to make your own decisions vs I take advantage of the camera functions to get me close first, and then use EC to vary shutter.
The way my camera works in manual, aperture is on the forefinger wheel and shutter on the thumbwheel. In Shutter or Aperture priority, one of those is on the forefinger while "the other", which is really just EC, is on the thumbwheel. I really dont see the difference other than one saying M vs Av vs Tv.

Yes, very similar indeed, but there's still the fudge factor with the camera. In shooting manually, if a slide comes back with a fucked up exposure, all I can do is blame myself, and I'm happy with that 'cause I can learn from it, but if I'm in a priority mode and the slide comes back fucked up, it's an added variable that I can do without, cause I'll never really know if it was me, or the camera that fucked it up.

Wow, hijack accomplished.

[Natedogg]

Wow, hijack accomplished.

Fine with me, there's thing to be learned somewhere in all that shit talking.

I've always either used the landscape setting (when I was a 100% jong), or the full manual setting. I've never messed with Av or Tv because I've always felt it's just a few clicks different. Then again, I don't typically shoot landscapes that will get away from me in the 0.5 seconds it takes to flip the wheel...

Hmm... I think I would have tilted the camera up a bit to reduce all the rocks in the foreground,
try taking a bunch of pictures from different angles with different settings.

That's what that photo was, I had moved around looking for different angles. The reason I posted that photo in particular was because it was one that I took recently that I remember having totally shit color. I don't like the photo and have no plans to use it in any way, so the composition, ISO, etc is not concerning to me. I could post quite a few more from that day that are overexposed and the trees still have that dull boring color to them. I'm trying to get to the root of the color comparison as evidenced from the first two photos. Which is actually a hikjack of my own thread, but since we got on it, it's something I've been trying to figure out for awhile now.

I believe one thing you want to do is switch the "Color Representation" over to Adobe RGB.

Awesome link, thank you. Will switching to Adobe RGB make a noticeable difference right away? I'll try that...

Film Emulator plugin for Photoshop - this one is supposedly a good one: http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/index.html

Another great link, thanks. And thanks for the other adivce.

I hear people bitching about how their new 20D etc is worse then thieir dinky P+S, most often using they are using the auto or even "semi-auto" settings and once the figure out "manual" they end up with what they were looking for.

That's the exact opposite of what I am experiencing. Although I agree that I do NOT want to shoot in automatic, since the shop guy told me that, I've tried using full auto and the photos have come out better. See next post--I just did a little experiment to show what I'm saying. I'm thinking that either 1) the guy I bought it from didn't reset the settings or 2) the sensor is fucked.

Shoot RAW, at the lowest ISO possible, to get the most out of your camera's dynamic range. sRGB JPEGs would be the worst setup for that particular scene.

I am still shooting JPG because I don't think I have software that recognizes RAW formats.

[Natedogg]

In my office, 5 minutes ago. All sRGB.


Full auto, 1/60, f/5.6, 17mm, ISO 400


Full manual, 1/60, f/5.6, 17mm, ISO 400, color temp 7200k, all parameters at middle


Full manual, 1/125, f/4.0, 17mm, ISO 400, color temp 7200k, all parameters at middle

[Bawheed]

I could be completely off the mark, but in full auto, it looks like the camera is applying sharpening and curves adjustments, but the full manual isn't. Why the camera wouldn't apply the sharpening and curves is beyond me though... a jpg is a jpg, why it would only apply the adjustments in full auto mode is a bit weird.

The full auto shot does look better except for the janky jaggies. A wee bit of post work in PS on the full manual jpgs should produce something as good, if not better, than the full auto shot.

[Tippster]

Seriously - the full auto is much more contrasty - seems like the blacks are pulled in manual.

[summit]

Tippster: definitely... I'm thinking that the Full Auto uses different in camera image processing parameters.

this is retarded

Im using the camera as a meter
I meter on what I want to be exposed how i want it to be exposed and set my ev accordingly AFTER i set my aperture.

do you all want a cookie because you're more core than I am when using an SLR that has a built in meter. You might as well just be using one of my old medium format cameras. Some of this logic is retarded, and you're taking a step backward. Learn to use the meter in your camera, understand its limitations, and how it meters things, and youre then setup to need to take one less peice of gear, need one more battery, or worry about damaging your meter when you really dont need one. For critical shooting, or for shooting in a studio, separate meters make a lot of sense because you can leave your camera where it is and meter off what you want...i do this myself sometimes. big deal.

the only "decision" im letting my camera make for me is to put it near the shutter time i want

When you shoot manually, do you completely ignore what the camera meter says? NO!
You use that info to make your own decisions.

SIMILARLY, I do the same, but instead of using Full Manual Dickwaiving, I take the more efficient route, for me and my camera, and use EC.

WTF is wrong with some of you people. Thanks for the insult bahweed.
Ill remember that the next time I look at the photos I printed in the darkroom hanging on my wall that arent worthy of the craft called photography.

edit: it seems its an issue of
You have to shoot in Manual to make your own decisions vs I take advantage of the camera functions to get me close first, and then use EC to vary shutter.
The way my camera works in manual, aperture is on the forefinger wheel and shutter on the thumbwheel. In Shutter or Aperture priority, one of those is on the forefinger while "the other", which is really just EC, is on the thumbwheel. I really dont see the difference other than one saying M vs Av vs Tv.

Let me put this to you with an example:

If I know that its pretty heavy overcast (lets say EV12.33) and I may have verified this with a meter reading at some point, I can decide to shoot at 1/500 f/4 ISO400 and simple walk around and shoot all I want without taking another meter reading unless I notice the light change. No EC is necessary. The same goes for a sunny day! Sunny f/16 -> shift, and go (EV16)! M is more efficient for this scenario. I don't need to meter anymore unless:

1. The lighting changes (may not have to meter, I may just know what to set to)
2. I wish to render my subject in a different manner than true (no metering needed, it's all a mental choice)
3. My subject enters a shaded or reflected environment: Even if I am shooting a moving subject and need to capture them in both shade and non-shade as they move, I can then premeter the shaded area so I know how many clicks to adjust while I am shooting without recomposing.

If I was on Tv or Av I'd have to meter before each shot off an appropriate metering material and then adjust EC each time. If the subject moves through the shaded area, what I have my meter pointed at will affect my exposure so my preset or preplanned EC change may not be right

Remember:
1. Your camera meter is a reflectivity meter, not an incidence meter.
2. If you are on matrix mode you never know which zones your camera is favoring which makes proper EC nearly impossible, you'll just have to trust the computer.
3. If you are on spot metering while actively shooting under an automated shooting mode, your composition will be compromised as you uncompose to aim your meter

I'm not saying I'm spot on 100% correct on all my exposures. I certainly am not 100% on action shots. However, I definitely find M + spot meter to give me more control with less hassle while being more efficient. YMMV

[summit]

I've always either used the landscape setting (when I was a 100% jong), or the full manual setting. I've never messed with Av or Tv because I've always felt it's just a few clicks different. Then again, I don't typically shoot landscapes that will get away from me in the 0.5 seconds it takes to flip the wheel...

Landscape is almost like shooting Av set to f/11.

Landscape biases toward small apertures often to the point of choosing unhandholdable shutter speeds (presumes no subject motion and that you might have a tripod). It often chooses apertures that are smaller than you need to maintain DoF and you lose sharpness due to diffraction.

Often landscape mode will bias your camera to set your lens focus to hyperfocal distance for whatever aperture it chooses (smart) whereas some other modes will often choose the closest focus point to choose focus.

It usually locks you into matrix metering and affects the zone biases algorithms for metering calculations based on likely landscape profiles. The mode is biased against flash use and locks you out of most image parameter, exposure compenastion, and RAW.

And now you know what landscape mode does.

[Shepherd Wong]

Don't shoot in aRGB. There are some professional situations where it is necessary and beneficial. But all applications using the image need to be colorspace aware or else aRGB will look dull.

I should add that aRGB is slightly better but if you're not sure that everything you want to view the photo with is aware your shot is aRGB you'll get into trouble.