Would Michael Moore be less annoying to watch if he did not look like he had a liposuction on reverse stuck up his ass?
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Would Michael Moore be less annoying to watch if he did not look like he had a liposuction on reverse stuck up his ass?
Yes, but he would still be quite annoying.
If he were only 140lbs he'd still be a complete douche. But since he's a fat lard, it's fun to rip on him for that as well. Seriously, him doing a "documentary" on health care is about as credible as Robert Downey doing a documentary on living the clean life. Dude should have died due to complications from diabetes years ago..
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Originally Posted by Jer
This makes utterly no sense. Why are you typing? He's not arguing for the best way to take care of your personal health, he's deconstructing a system that is designed to put profit above your personal health.
I think what he is saying is that if people would take a little responsibility for there own well being, then health care may not be as much as an issue. and he is a big fat fucking used tampon with a yeast infection.Quote:
Originally Posted by stupendous man
That might hold water if professional prevantative care was realistically attainable for those who can't afford health insurance. As it is....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemical Ali' The Wax Master
The denigrating comments re: Mr. Moore are pretty similar to those hurled at Al Gore and his lifestyle. Unfortunately, these comments have jack shit to do with the vailidity of the points these gentlemen raise. They're tangential at best, and are a woeful distraction from the messes that we're making for ourselves.
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Originally Posted by Jer
So, using this logic a white person can have no view on racism.
Because most of our health care costs in this country come from a very small number of people, and those health care costs come largely from people who lead unhealthy lifestyles, Michael Moore is more analagous to a klan member preaching about racism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush
No, in this instance, a klan member preaching about racism is more like a health insurance company CEO making SiCKO. If you've actually watched the movie, it's about the health care system. Preventative care is a very large part of the equation. Actually, there are some interesting points made in the movie about how those in some countries w/ socialized health care take preventative care much more seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirshredalot
Some people are pretty frickin hopeless when it comes to analogies.... :rolleyes:
Actually, I don't know why you'd have a problem with a klan member coming out against racism and making a documentary of it. That isn't absurd.
If fewer people got sick from leading unhealthy lifestyles, everyone's health care would be cheaper. Just as if we had fewer people supporting the klan, then we would have less racism, get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
When my insurance bill comes to me, I'm not paying for the 10% likelihood that I'm going to break my arm or 5% likelihood that I'm going to blow out my ACL; I'm largely paying for the obese and 3-pack-a-day-smokers, etc. Michael Moore and his gigantic ass are part of that problem.
bullshit. As a regular participant of a dangerous action sport, you're just as big a part of the "problem."
In the movie, the failings of the health care system are presented as a fundamental conflict of interest. This is contrasted with systems in other countries. Lifestyle choices and the US healthcare system may be distantly related issues, but they are NOT the SAME issue. The only point of debate is how distant.
You know, if God, or aliens who could control the future, came to me today and told me I was going to be in a terrible car accident tomorrow and they were giving me the choice of what country to have this accident in. I would choose the United States.
Now, with that in mind, I have to ask myself: Do these people who have given up the best years of their life to learn medicine, to develop the skill to hold life and death in their hands, do they have a right to charge a premium for their services/knowledge/skill? The answer is yes.
In the same vein, I have to ask, do I, as a medically unskilled/uneducated person, have a right to expect these highly skilled people to give me their expertise(that they traded a large portion of their life to acquire) for a reduced rate, or for free(i.e. do I have a right to their expertise), the answer is no.
I haven't seen that piece of human debris's latest movie, but I get really, really tired of hearing people whining about the cost of health care.
Health care is not a right. It is a privilege.
Everyone gets sick. Everyone will, eventually, die. If you have the means to access the expertise of these amazing people in our society, then you can live healthier and perhaps longer. But nobody is entitled to the life(remember, these people traded the best years of their life for this knowledge/ability) of another.
The arrogance of some people amazes me.
if you are a fat ass, and fat asses are the the root cause of heart disease, cancer, diabetes resulting in the largest reason for lost work days and the largest weight on our healthcare system you would be making this movie too. it is an act of self interest. this guy manages his money like Mike Tyson and will be on the public dole again.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
No, that is completely untrue. For the most part, I'm risking a one-time expense of a broken arm or a snapped ligament. This is a very minor expense compared to people who are risking chronic/delibilitating conditions by engaging in risky activities of the sort that expand one's ass to Moore-esque dimensions. AND we have laws that group the rest of us in the same insurance pools as people like Moore. Our poor lifestyle choices and obesity epidemic (along with the aging of the population) are probably the largest contributing factors to our poor expenditure/health outcome ratio in this country, whether one is discussing the private sector (about 50% of the market) or the public sector (the other 50% of the market). And if you're talking about improving our health-care system and you're not focusing on the expenditure/health outcome ratio, then you're completely missing the big picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
I come from a familiy of doctors (great-grandfather, grandfather, father, uncles, etc. -- I broke the chain) and I agree with the majority of what you said. What I struggle with (and this isn't something I'm completely off the fence on) is a middleman making a profit on the transaction. Is there a better way to pay these doctors? That's what a large part of the debate is about, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
Just for an anecdotal perspective: My father's an ER doctor. He believes the system sucks and perpetuates many of our health problems (obesity, substance abuse, etc.). He's a very strong advocate of a socialized healthcare system, even though it means he'd probably make less money.
I notice you chose to exclude the very real chance of a chroic/debilitating injury from your activities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirshredalot
As for you hypothesis - it's not particularly well supported by fact, but why let that stop you?
Was public education always a right in this country? Rights are those things granted citizens by citizens. If we want to make basic health care a right what is stopping us? There are just certain things that make life and society more civilized.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
:rolleyes: Right. He made the movie b/c he's obese.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_gyptian
Fucking brilliant.
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Originally Posted by Cyber Cop
I don't believe that education is a right.
If we want to institute/recognize/create(out of whole cloth) some moral obligation that those in the health care industry have to everybody else, then we need to pay for every penny of their education and then give them a stipend to live on as they go through medical school. Until we do this; health care is a privilege.
Edit: Oh, and this is critical, rights are not created/granted. Rights exist or they don't. We have the choice of recognizing them, or not. Entitlements are created, rights are not, and there is nothing that anyone in the general public has done(as of yet) that entitles them to the expertise of those in the medical community.
Short of a freak spinal cord injury (god forbid), my activities won't lead to a chronic/debilitating injury that places a large burden on our health care system. The chances of that happening are mighty slim. The chances of Michael Moore and other people like him suffering chronic, obesity-related illness is extremely likely. As his generation ages, I'm going to be paying for his treatment through Medicare. That's also extremely likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Why do you suppose my hypothesis that unhealthy lifestyles are leading to a massive burden for our health care system is incorrect? We spend far more on our health care than any other developed country in the world, we have the most skilled physicians in the world, and our life expectancy and quality of life measures still lag many other developed countries. Also, we are the fattest country in the HISTORY OF THE WORLD and our type 2 diabetes rates have skyrocketed over the past several decades and now include a significant number of children. Nearly all of our health-care expenditure is focused on a relatively small percentage of the population that is either chronically ill or dying. This is all fact. How much of it will be solved by just transitioning to a single-payer system as Moore undoubtedly espouses? My best guess is none.
so you feel fat people are the problem. coolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sirshredalot
It'd highly unlikely you'll pay for Michael Moore's care through Medicare. Just saying.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH AND MORE MEATPUPPET PHILOSOPHICAL PEDANTRY! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHH
They do have a generally recognized moral obligation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
Nobody said it should be free. Nobody said they shouldn't be well paid. Some people just think that a healthier citizenry would be a good thing. How do we accomplish this? Socialized health care programs seem to be a viable solution.
How does society progress? How do you gauge different degrees of civilization? The one with police and fire departments would seem to be further along than the one without. If another has police, fire, and public education -- well..... Is health care not one of these steps?
I bet teachers would be happy to take that deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
Offering basic health care is not going to stop specialist in the medical field from making large salaries. The problem is not the medical field anyway, it is the insurance companies taking huge sums out of the system and in the end offering an inferior product. That's why we have to buy supplemental insurance to avoid bankruptcy from a catastrophic illness. Even with a health plan the out of pocket expenses can be huge.
[QUOTE=cj001f;1346405]so you feel fat people are the problem. cool
It'd highly unlikely you'll pay for Michael Moore's care through Medicare. Just saying.
Firstly, I don't just feel that fat people are a major and rapidly growing source of health care costs in this country and in the developed world in general. The WHO and CDC will back me up on this one, if you care to peruse their web site. If you're more concerned about cost figures, I suggest checking out some of the nice papers published by the faculty at UNC and Johns Hopkins. Go read this crap. I have. Insurance pooling/moral hazard is a bitch, and I do exhibit some of it myself in the way I ski (I ski differently when I'm uninsured). There is no panacea or easy answer to our health care problems in the US if you want to look at things from an epidemiology/public health point of view. Maybe a Swiss system would be an improvement because it would eliminate free-riders?
As Medicare is set up currently, I fully anticipate paying for Michael Moore's health care should he live to his late '60's. If you're younger than him, so should you. If you don't, the IRS will repo your house.
Now, if you want to argue in terms of responsibility to other human beings, then I'm afraid you're going to have to engage Meatpuppet's "philosophical pedantry."
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirshredalot
9.1% of the US medical costs is pretty small
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obes...nsequences.htm
Look, it's like this. If I have to look at Michael Moore, then you all god damn well have to put up with my kids peering at you in the next booth over. Fair is fair.
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Originally Posted by cj001f
C'mon man! I'm a loser. I sit in my mom's basement, in my underwear, drinking cheap scotch(foodstamps only go so far...) and typing on the internet. This is all I have to look forward to. Can you give me a break?!?
On another note...
Words have meaning. Too many people want to throw around words that have power and use them(incorrectly) for self serving purposes. People claiming that they have a right to somebody else's expertise is an example.
Besides, you have nothing better to add:p
They have a moral obligation to render aid in a time of need. I'm not sure that extends to a general practice. At what point in their medical training do they no longer have control over their own time and choices?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
We do that at the expense of quality. Show me any nation in the world with a socialized health care system and I will show you a nation who's physicians are, on average, less skilled than ours. This is not a slight on foreign doctors, it's just fact. The free market system produces a better product than institutionalized health care.Quote:
Nobody said it should be free. Nobody said they shouldn't be well paid. Some people just think that a healthier citizenry would be a good thing. How do we accomplish this? Socialized health care programs seem to be a viable solution.
That's a matter of debate. Some would say yes, others would say no. I say no.Quote:
How does society progress? How do you gauge different degrees of civilization? The one with police and fire departments would seem to be further along than the one without. If another has police, fire, and public education -- well..... Is health care not one of these steps?
Teachers are government employees, paid out of the public dole. Other than the military, I don't think doctors have that option available to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Cop
Nobody is forcing anyone to go through insurance companies. They are just the cheapest option. You get what you pay for.Quote:
Offering basic health care is not going to stop specialist in the medical field from making large salaries. The problem is not the medical field anyway, it is the insurance companies taking huge sums out of the system and in the end offering an inferior product. That's why we have to buy supplemental insurance to avoid bankruptcy from a catastrophic illness. Even with a health plan the out of pocket expenses can be huge.
I know, I'm an evil capitalist. But if somebody pays for their own education, I believe they have the right to charge what they want. If you or I can't afford them, then we have to go with cheaper options. That means that the treatment/options available to us will not be as good as the best our society has to offer. But I have to ask, which would you prefer; the average HMO of today, or the best humanity had to offer in 1890?
As a society we are making consistent, steady progress. Too many people think their existence entitles them to the best our society has to offer. They are simply mistaken.
So fat people are the reason the US healthcare system is inefficient and corrupt?
The movie is about the health care system, and more specifically about HMO's and health insurance companies. It's about who receives care, who pays for care, and how it's handled. Solving the obesity epidemic is a different issue entirely. Do you really not see the difference?
Meatpuppet: Can the efficiencies and level of care achieved by our current system be achieved through a single payer system? Is it possible? Is our level of care so high because some people get turned away because they can't pay? I think it's worth thinking about.
Comeon man, it's an easy excuse. Let them believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
No, that's silly, of course. They are a horrible eyesore, though. Shouldn't we do something about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
mmm soylent greenQuote:
Originally Posted by woodstocksez
And such a bang for the buck! You're a genius!Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
So how much government money went into funding research that gives US doctors the best training, information and medicines? If you want to live by your ideology of you only get what you pay for then I challenge you to do that. You can start by staying off our highways and out of our forests. Well I guess you can use the square inch in Utah that you paid for, but you better hurry before it burns.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
Oh, and pay graduates of state schools less, because I subsidized their education.
Doctors are part of the free market system. Just like any other professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Cop
We have decided to allow public money to be used to build and maintain a highway system. Same for National forests. If doctors salaries were paid with public money, you would have a point. As of today, they are not. So the comparison is a bad one.
If we, as a society, decide to fund the education of some, or all, doctors, then the general public will be entitled to their expertise. As of today, that is not the case.
Edit for clarity: I don't have a problem with socialized health care. I have a problem with forcing it on those who didn't sign up for it. This applies to the doctors and the patients. If doctors want to sign up for a government job helping those without health insurance, that's great. But it shouldn't be grandfathered in and forced on everyone.
The idea that our society can decide that a whole class of professional people are suddenly obligated to give their services to the public at a reduced rate is absurd. Yet, that's just what(too many) people want to do. The term "tyranny of the majority" comes to mind.
I'm here to post in another important thread about how fat Michael Moore is.
more fat people = fewer people per airplane = more planes sold :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by The AD
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Originally Posted by Sirshredalot
A dirty little secret that Hillary's commitee dug up in '91 and really isn't a secret to health care professionals and people like me who have had a parent spend the last few months of their lives in and out of Intensive Care, is that a VERY large proportion of our health care costs are used in something like the LAST 28 days of an average person's life. My father's hospital bills came to over 600 grand for 3 months care, and, it may sound cruel, but they were just keeping him alive. And that was in '89.
Walk into any hospital, and you'll find mostly elderly people who really don't want to be there effectively spending almost 100 times as much as they had all their lives before that for health care. This is a problem if we want a more equitable system. Somebody has to budget and decide when, to, well, pull the plug.
And, although I'm appreciative of Moore starting a dialogue about this issue, which is the best one can do these days, I agree that he is a horrible spokesman. Obesity leads to onset diabetes, pure and simple, and diabetes is a horrible and insidious disease that erodes the body over many years, but with the expensive, modern technology that we have created, and the profit motive that feeds it, we can keep sufferers alive for a long, expensive time. A fat, middle class American can be worth a million bucks to the medical and hospital and drug industry, and don't fucking kid yourself that there aren't people wearing ties in cubes working to get their share. And it is a serious problem. NYC is calling it an epedemic within the five boroughs.
My father died from complications of onset diabetes, so I've seen how dismal those last ten years can be. That's why I eat right and exercise. And always carry good insurance.
Hey. MeatPuppet- FUCK YOU. Come back when you are told at the age of 28 you have cancer, are working two part time jobs in lieu of full time, and have no health insurance. And just for some background info, at the time of my initial diagnosis, I was in better than average shape, nowhere near overweight, a non-smoker, ate fairly healthy (certainly better than most single guys my age), went to the gym and/or road biked at least 5 days a week. Are you telling me that because at that time in my life I was experiencing a rut economically I should not have been given acess to health cae because I couldn't afford it? By your reasoning, I should be dead right now.
You claim doctors are highly trained professonals, who have the right to charge premiums for their skils. I coud not agree more. My doctors earn every cent they make. However, I also believe ha everyone as a fundamental right to their services. If criminals are constitutionaly guaraunted the right to an attorney, give me one good reason (besides you libertarian BS philosophy) why a sick person shuld not be garuneed the right to see a doctor?
Of course the majrity of health care expenses goes toward a minority fo perople. How many of you had over $100K in medical expenses last year. Of course the smallest percentage will use more money. Healthy people don't need meds, surgery, rehab, hospital stays, repeated doctor's visits, etc.
You can't really assign a single reason as to why the U.S. system is comparativley expensive but if you actually look at what the money goes to the primary difference between socialized healthcare and our system is that far less money is spent on administration in a nonprofit system. Generally speaking this is due to the simple fact that HMOs and shit make more money when they don't pay for services or pay less, and figuring all that crap out takes people and time. The HMO is essentially dead as almost all new workers with a choice go PPO, this will probably only increase admin costs.
P.S. Michael Moore is a fat fuck
The rest of the previous post was confusing, so, for clarity and to help others, I decided to distill the post to its essence.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmadaBC
You're welcome.