Brand-new, still-wrapped Gotamas 05/06 183cm just arrived in the mail. What a relief when I saw those words in the boards: MADE IN GERMANY.
Words that future generations of skiers will never knew existed....:(
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Brand-new, still-wrapped Gotamas 05/06 183cm just arrived in the mail. What a relief when I saw those words in the boards: MADE IN GERMANY.
Words that future generations of skiers will never knew existed....:(
I have a pair of Volkl ax4's still in plastic that I bought 2 years ago. I thought about selling them, but i'm definitely keeping them now. Hope you like your goats.
188cm? if you change you mind let me knowQuote:
Originally Posted by Powder Ho
Did I miss something? Are Gotamas being made outside of Germany now?
The new 06/07 version is made in China. At least that's what I've heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebird
And white. Yuuuuuuuk :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lok
They way I see it as new models become just part of the regular lineup (07/08 Mantras, Karmas, AC4) they will all be made in China. The future new models will come out of Straubing...for a couple of seasons, and then the cycle begins again. So stock up in 05/06 Gotamas.
Is the whole german made thing really that much of an issue on volkls?
Granted you lose the "comfort" or whatever it is you get by not having a ski made in China\Taiwan\Wherever, but if its made well its made well. The only argument I could possibly see for location is if its made in the US and you want to support people like PMGear.
I ask this question because of the somewhat questionable construction we've all read and heard about with this years Mantra.
This is becoming standard practice with many companies.
New products are made locally for a year or two, so that they can make design changes or address manufacturing issues quickly. (It's tough to go back and forth across an ocean with engineering change orders.) Then, once the company feels confident that the product and its manufacturing process are dialed in, they go to China and say "Make me thousands more, exactly like this one," because volume production costs so much less there.
There isn't usually a quality issue anymore, either. In electronics manufacturing, for instance, the Chinese have much better technology for mass production than we do.
There are, however, moral issues.
Germans don't really value homegrown products. There is a joke in Germany. It goes something like "Made in Germany" really means "Made BY TURKS in Germany". In Germany, "Turks" are thought of the same way "China" is perceived by Americans. Having said that, I like my skis, cars and appliances to be of German origin.
"Made in China" isn't the dirty word it used to be.
In part I agree, and it will be much better in the future. But in manufacturing (as in anything in life) there is a learning curve, and ultimately it is the consumers that pay the price for that "education".Quote:
Originally Posted by sevensixfive
Look at some other "recent" cases: In the 50s and 60s anything printed "MADE IN JAPAN" was percieved as (and usually, not always, but usually was) a piece of trash. Anything bought now that says MADE IN JAPAN is über plus ultra quality. I guess that with MADE IN CHINA right now we are somewhere as we were with MADE IN JAPAN in the late 60s and early 70's. But not all industries transfer geographically their manufacturing know-how at the same speed: it heavily relies on the volume numbers of the industry. READ NEXT POST.
Might be that Chinese have better manufacturing technology for most TRULY mass production industries: consumer electronics, semiconductors, steel, cars, food, textile. So I agree that Quality is not an issue here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats
This is not the case of the ski industry. China does not have NOWADAYS the years of expertise, knowhow and technology in the ski manufacturing industry that Euros have. PERIOD.
Additionally, the ski manufacturing industry does not remotely have the turnover numbers of the above mentioned industries and IT WILL NEVER HAVE THEM. Still it's more of a specialized than a mass production industry. So in these cases of specialized low turnover industries, manufacturing know-how is harder to achieve and transfer, hence quality is harder to achieve and control.
Just to put my argument above in perspective I'll give you an extreme case of an industry of specialized low turnover manufacturing, luxury watches: I don't see Patek Phillipe starting to manufacture their watches in China anytime soon.
You are not alone...who doesn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by schindlerpiste
Be careful with this statement. It isn't always about how the skis are made versus what they are made out of. China may not have the expertise in ski building but they may have expertise in the new, exotic materials going into skis now. Case in point: DP skis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
OOooops! I better add woman to the list, before Mrs. Schindler reads this. Otherwise, kein bumsen fur ein monat.:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by schindlerpiste
Extreme is correct. There is absolutely no correlation between laying up a ski and making a hand built mechanism which requires incredible precision. You might as well compare a pair of rollerskates to a turbine engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
You want to make a good comparison? I'd say that laying up a ski is about as complicated as plastic molding. Look at almost any plastic part made, and you'll know that the Chinese have the latter down cold.
The key here is where the ski is being designed. That's still happening in Germany, and so the rest is kinda pointless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schindlerpiste
Don't worry Schindler...the LS9000 is still made in Schtuppgart.
Design will follow manufacturing. For skis especially, it's the easy part. Look at your laptop. Increasignly designed in Taiwan, almost exclusively made in taiwan or some other eastern country. The american company just handles the marketing and finance side (Dell). The outdoor industry will, and is starting to see the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty50
Material expertise is industry specific. If China were the leader in magnesium and titanium manufacturing will still not help them if they don't know how to put that on a ski to work effectively. Last time I've checked, R&D is still done in Europe. Or in the US in the case of K2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conundrum
Thanks for reminding me but I've already read that post two weeks ago. AND let me add it was one of the main reasons I've bought the 05/06 model. TGR can be fountain of wisdom...sometimes :pQuote:
Originally Posted by irul&ublo
Well, first building skis is not ONLY as complicated as plastic moulding. If it only were that you wouldn't see skis with carbon/wood cores, titanium sheets, magnesium power channels, beta technology, i.chip technology, etc, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty50
Second, R&D is key but is not the only key issue for the reasons I mentioned in the above posts.
and third, if you are happy with your MADE IN CHINA Gotamas and K2 skis good for you. Some people still prefer the original stuff.
Unfortunately, I believe that's the trend. Again, good case in point are post-war Japan and Taiwan in consumer electronics and PCs.Quote:
Originally Posted by cj001f
Yeah, but Volkl doesn't do most of that crap. We're talking about basic wood core skis here with the occasional titanal stips/sheets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
You said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty50
You didn't say "I'd say that laying up a "Völkl" ski is about as complicated as plastic molding". So you were talking about the ski industry in general and not of a particular brand in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty50
Nevertheless, it is not just a "basic wood core with the occasional titanal stips/sheets". Check out how a Völkl Sensorwood core is made. Here, this might help: http://www.volkl.com/ski/ski_tech.html
P.S.: There is nothing "ocassional" about titanium. You make it sound like you can buy the stuff at Home Depot...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder Ho
GET OUT IMPOSTER!
maggot v. sniper
Oh, so you want to nitpick now. Fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
Show me where I said any of this, including plastic molding, was easy. I was speaking in relative terms, and I think that should be fairly obvious. Pressing a ski isn't exactly rocket science. If you take into account the breadth of items that are manufactured, skis are on the low end of the learning curve. And pressing a Volkl isn't exactly as difficult as pressing an Atomic with Beta channels. They use a pretty classic ski design and so it shouldn't be that hard to manufacture. The Chinese made K2s seem to hold up pretty damn well, and they don't appear to be all that different.
It seems to me like you're trying to rationalize an irrational attachment to certain countries. The Chinese currently make a host of very good products. Sure there's a bunch of junk too, but every country puts out it's fair share of garbage. Heck, look at Mercedes today. Not that long ago, their cars were considered bombproof overengineered tanks. Nowadays, you're lucky to keep it in your garage longer than it's in the shop. And somehow I think building a luxury automobile is a bit more difficult than pressing any ski.
Not really, I love Chinese food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty50
And I really hate German food.
Rationalize that, Sigmund!
Funny to see a thread lamenting that a ski named Gotama is made in Asia.
No, it would be really funny when labor cost gets so expensive in China that they start making the skis in INDIA!!!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by bklyntrayc
And in due time IT WILL HAPPEN, as it has in the past in Japan, Taiwan, Singapur and all the other originally cheap labor places which now produce super expensive quality products.
Titanal is an aluminum alloy that contains no titanium. It is purchased by various ski manufactures in sheets. Not that much specializiation required from what I can see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
You may be the original, but I'm the urban version. I grew up on the gritty streets of Buffalo, NY. BTW,your photos are incredible.
You need to cut it to the ski shape, curve it to the ski profile, bond it to the core/layers, etc. My point was that "building skis is not just molding plastic" as Arty50 said. Just read the posts, man. Other techs involved in making skis, not only titanal. already explained. READ ABOVE. Going to bed.Quote:
Originally Posted by babel
*Sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
7890
Good thing someone from Germany or the US is telling them how to do it then. They have some pretty tight quality control standards...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
Yes, go to bed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpinist
Will sombody just hurry up and get ahold of these ugly ass white monstrosities and tell me how much of a difference there is in the ride?;)
*cough* *COUGH* search *cough* function *cough*Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo
Maybe if Volkl had outsourced manufacturing to China 3 years ago, they could have invested enough in R&D to figure out that wooden sidewalls are fucking stupid.