Cutting Cornices: An ethics question [nerd alert]

Bear with the excessive nerdiness of this post but the "Best Couloir in NA" thread got me thinking about this as a topic:
http://biglines.com/photos/blpic39919.jpg

Is chopping an enormous cornice the skiing equivalent of chopping holds on bouldering/climbing routes (eg: bringing it down to your level instead of sacking up and meeting the challenge)?

I'm inclined to say no as you're not permanently altering anything and that's one small objective hazzard removed to ski a line much greater than the sum of the entrance and certainly there's valid cornice cutting reasons unrelated to not having the sack for such an undertaking.

The flip side is that I'm sure there's someone who would drop in even with such a cornice and that person would surely be pissed to show up and see that someone had downgraded the entrance.

Discuss

One more fact towards it being ok. It is a great way to test the snowpack.

That might be a good excuse....beside being scared. :)

lemon.

That's a good topic. I've never even thought about it as I chop cornices to drop them on slopes all the time. I've never thought about it as dumbing down slopes but maybe I should.

since this thread is useless w/o pics here is Super couloir on Mt Atwell with the cornice trimmed

http://doglotion.com/dogblog/hello/8...2004%20093.jpg

Well, from an avy safety perspective, you should never, ever go out on a cornice. Much less, one that large. So if someone gets pissed at you for knocking that sucker off because they wanted to ski it, then they're stupid.

Cut away.

I've been eyeing up Siberian Express on Garibaldi - a huge mother cornice forms above it which is a real big objective hazard climbing it

http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic31863.jpg

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Originally Posted by Arty50

Well, from an avy safety perspective, you should never, ever go out on a cornice. Much less, one that large. So if someone gets pissed at you for knocking that sucker off because they wanted to ski it, then they're stupid.

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What he said.

Huckweat, that was certainly one of the reasons I was thinking as legit.

I could even see cutting it one week during the spring for a following week attempt (let any damage to the route repair during M/F cycles).

[Reason I asked was this particular cornice was sited as a reason for not doing the shot] Might require a bit more specialized a rope than typically used for trimming smaller sized ones as well.

edit- Leelau- sweet pics!

Just cut it and ski it. If anyone gets pissed, oh well. You may have just saved their lives.

tx lemon. Just to not be a wuss and to take a position, if I wanted to ski a chute and there was an overhanging cornice I'd almost certainly cut it; just for the avalanche safety perspective.

Cutting cornices is fun. However, cutting something that big would require a bomb or a backhoe.
Anyway, I don’t think cutting a cornice is analogous to cutting a hand hold on a rock route. Snow conditions are always changing and cornices aren’t the same size through out the year or even year to year. In my mind, it is better form to ski a line safely than have several tons of snow chase you down the hill.

Cut it.

Chop holds (in Font) and I'm coming after you with a ball peen hammer...

Cut it. Make sure there are no climbers below:eek: . If it takes some danger out of the equation it's all good in my book.

man I'm gonna be disappointed if this one goes "seriously" unanimous.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

man I'm gonna be disappointed if this one goes "seriously" unanimous.

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I know from a climber's perspective, there's nothing like topping out on an overhanging cornice. So, yes, most climbers would be a little disappointed if the cornice was cut when they got to the route. However, with the amount of wind we get, I'm sure there would be one to replace it within a few days.

don't cut it because that's gay


</don't be sad lemonboy>

The original slope already has a good sized crown line below the entrance. Cutting the cornice could likely release the top. All the better reason to do so.

Okay, from a climbing perspective. It is just like "chopping holds" but that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't do it. There are a lot of faces that would be unclimbable if it wasn't for aid. Fore example, Lynn Hill can free the Nose on El Cap, but most climbers are still aiding through sections of the climb. I won't still say that cutting a cornice is more ethical because as you said it isn't permanent. If you chop holds it will ruin the route forever. Aid doesn't necessarily harm that route. Moral of the story: cut cornices, don't chop holds.

If you want bragging rights for having done a route, then do the route the way you found it and don't go altering the route so you can ski it. Personally, I don't do anything worth bragging about anyways, so I will surely cut the cornice if it is necessary to 1) test the stability of the slope beneath, or 2) let me get at the goodies under the cornice.
As to worrying about somebody being pissed that I cut the cornice on top of their route -- wouldn't they be even more pissed that I skied the thing? Or do folks out there gladly ski previously tracked couloirs!!

Chipping holdsj on rock routes is a permanent alteration that will affect everyone for eons. That is bringing something down to your level.

Cutting a cornice is the prudent and safe thing to do. If you have the 'sack' or stupidity, then go for it. But if it breaks as you approach it and then rolls over and kills you, what have you attained?

Wouldn't want to be run over by this cornice I came across a couple days ago.
http://fritzrips.com/Gallery/albums/...n/IMG_2492.jpg

I could really care less what people do. Unless they are in my group. I am not partial to watching people cartwheel down couloirs.

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Originally Posted by aj_77

Okay, from a climbing perspective. It is just like "chopping holds" but that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't do it.

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No, it's not. Knocking off loose ice when ice climbing is a much better analogy - you are removing a hazard to you and your party. Gratuitous bashing is frowned upon; simple cleaning isn't.

Cut it. There is no shame in not wanting to be at the 2 part of 3,2,1..dropping and suddenly have the bottom drop out on you.

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

I've been eyeing up Siberian Express on Garibaldi - a huge mother cornice forms above it which is a real big objective hazard climbing it

http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic31863.jpg

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This is very beautiful.

As for the question: Tee it up!!! Jump in if you can. :FIREdevil

Pretty much as everyone else said, chipping and gluing holds doesnt remove any hazard, whereas chopping a cornice removes a very real and deadly hazard. The area gets a little grey when people take crowbars to "loose" rock so it doesn't break off "later," but they're not actually manufacturing holds.

Climbers want to bust through monster gargoyles at the top, and climb under them for hours on end? Bwhaahahah! Cut away.

Is it okay if I leave screws/draws hanging on the cornice so long as I don't cut it? Fucking sport climbers.

i think this also depends on where you are....but as a rule, i cut /em if it seems safe (roped, etc) to do so. side country at alpine, i ski cut those mofos all the time out in estelle and upper beaver before dropping in....

We dug a pit the other day and didn't fill it in when we were done. It was sick. The establishment lost.

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Originally Posted by User Name

How about, quit being a pussy and just huck the thing?

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Yeah! Ask Roman Latta about how rad it is to huck cornices!

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Originally Posted by User Name

It's a pretty poor sight to be in a pristine place and see a nice, long cornice marred by a large cut. I go into the backcountry to get away, and a cut cornice is more noticeable than anything else, including ski tracks and slides.

How about, quit being a pussy and just huck the thing?

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you are an idiot

obviously this depends on the topography of the area but going around it should be an option too.

reasons not to go around:
--if the temps are rising you might not want to be under one at all.

--the cornice is there for a reason. obviously the slope loads frequently.

--as mentioned before, cutting the cornice may give some insight on the conditions. it should also be mentioned that there are a lot of times that the cronice may not put enough force on the slope or hit the magic button in the start zone. joshbu, there was a cornice cut and dropped in king's chute that day. the impact of the skier hitting a different "sweet spot" set it off and it was later named roman's chute.

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Originally Posted by AltaPowderDaze

reasons not to go around:
--if the temps are rising you might not want to be under one at all.

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Also, beware rapid cooling; probably even more so than rising temps to be nowhere near a cornice, particularly under it!

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Originally Posted by LeeLau

I've been eyeing up Siberian Express on Garibaldi - a huge mother cornice forms above it which is a real big objective hazard climbing it

http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic31863.jpg

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Hey Lee you might as well forget eyeing it up. You can't use explosives in the park and that's the only way you're skiing that, unless of course you have a death wish. Even if you could annihilate the cornice, then the skiing would suck!

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Originally Posted by nesta

Also, beware rapid cooling; probably even more so than rising temps to be nowhere near a cornice, particularly under it!

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good point, nesta. rapid change of any kind is not great for most things on snow.

What's a cornice?

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Originally Posted by nesta

Hey Lee you might as well forget eyeing it up. You can't use explosives in the park and that's the only way you're skiing that, unless of course you have a death wish. Even if you could annihilate the cornice, then the skiing would suck!

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Hey trevor hunt skied it. Maybe if I got a really really long saw? I can dream can't i?

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Originally Posted by Colossus178

What's a cornice?

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These seemed funny when I posted it, but now it just seems stupid. Never try to be funny when you've been drinking...

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Originally Posted by cj001f

No, it's not. Knocking off loose ice when ice climbing is a much better analogy - you are removing a hazard to you and your party. Gratuitous bashing is frowned upon; simple cleaning isn't.

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I agree knocking off ice is a better analogy, but the comparison I was getting at was that chopping holds makes the route climbable whereas cutting the cornice makes the slope skiable. The whole problem lies in the fact that chopping holds is permanent, which is why that practice is verboten.