Cutting Cornices: An ethics question [nerd alert]

[lemon boy]

Bear with the excessive nerdiness of this post but the "Best Couloir in NA" thread got me thinking about this as a topic:


Is chopping an enormous cornice the skiing equivalent of chopping holds on bouldering/climbing routes (eg: bringing it down to your level instead of sacking up and meeting the challenge)?

I'm inclined to say no as you're not permanently altering anything and that's one small objective hazzard removed to ski a line much greater than the sum of the entrance and certainly there's valid cornice cutting reasons unrelated to not having the sack for such an undertaking.

The flip side is that I'm sure there's someone who would drop in even with such a cornice and that person would surely be pissed to show up and see that someone had downgraded the entrance.

Discuss

[Huckwheat]

One more fact towards it being ok. It is a great way to test the snowpack.

That might be a good excuse....beside being scared.

[LeeLau]

lemon.

That's a good topic. I've never even thought about it as I chop cornices to drop them on slopes all the time. I've never thought about it as dumbing down slopes but maybe I should.

since this thread is useless w/o pics here is Super couloir on Mt Atwell with the cornice trimmed

[Arty50]

Well, from an avy safety perspective, you should never, ever go out on a cornice. Much less, one that large. So if someone gets pissed at you for knocking that sucker off because they wanted to ski it, then they're stupid.

[ptavv]

Cut away.

[LeeLau]

I've been eyeing up Siberian Express on Garibaldi - a huge mother cornice forms above it which is a real big objective hazard climbing it

[Lurch]

Well, from an avy safety perspective, you should never, ever go out on a cornice. Much less, one that large. So if someone gets pissed at you for knocking that sucker off because they wanted to ski it, then they're stupid.

What he said.

[lemon boy]

Huckweat, that was certainly one of the reasons I was thinking as legit.

I could even see cutting it one week during the spring for a following week attempt (let any damage to the route repair during M/F cycles).

[Reason I asked was this particular cornice was sited as a reason for not doing the shot] Might require a bit more specialized a rope than typically used for trimming smaller sized ones as well.

edit- Leelau- sweet pics!

[Sensisnow]

Just cut it and ski it. If anyone gets pissed, oh well. You may have just saved their lives.

[LeeLau]

tx lemon. Just to not be a wuss and to take a position, if I wanted to ski a chute and there was an overhanging cornice I'd almost certainly cut it; just for the avalanche safety perspective.

[Greydon Clark]

Cutting cornices is fun. However, cutting something that big would require a bomb or a backhoe.
Anyway, I don’t think cutting a cornice is analogous to cutting a hand hold on a rock route. Snow conditions are always changing and cornices aren’t the same size through out the year or even year to year. In my mind, it is better form to ski a line safely than have several tons of snow chase you down the hill.

[Tectonically_Neglected]

Cut it.

Chop holds (in Font) and I'm coming after you with a ball peen hammer...

[iskibc]

Cut it. Make sure there are no climbers below . If it takes some danger out of the equation it's all good in my book.

[lemon boy]

man I'm gonna be disappointed if this one goes "seriously" unanimous.

[iskibc]

man I'm gonna be disappointed if this one goes "seriously" unanimous.

I know from a climber's perspective, there's nothing like topping out on an overhanging cornice. So, yes, most climbers would be a little disappointed if the cornice was cut when they got to the route. However, with the amount of wind we get, I'm sure there would be one to replace it within a few days.

[phUnk]

don't cut it because that's gay


</don't be sad lemonboy>

[Cirquerider]

The original slope already has a good sized crown line below the entrance. Cutting the cornice could likely release the top. All the better reason to do so.

[andrewjesaitis]

Okay, from a climbing perspective. It is just like "chopping holds" but that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't do it. There are a lot of faces that would be unclimbable if it wasn't for aid. Fore example, Lynn Hill can free the Nose on El Cap, but most climbers are still aiding through sections of the climb. I won't still say that cutting a cornice is more ethical because as you said it isn't permanent. If you chop holds it will ruin the route forever. Aid doesn't necessarily harm that route. Moral of the story: cut cornices, don't chop holds.

[BakerBunny]

If you want bragging rights for having done a route, then do the route the way you found it and don't go altering the route so you can ski it. Personally, I don't do anything worth bragging about anyways, so I will surely cut the cornice if it is necessary to 1) test the stability of the slope beneath, or 2) let me get at the goodies under the cornice.
As to worrying about somebody being pissed that I cut the cornice on top of their route -- wouldn't they be even more pissed that I skied the thing? Or do folks out there gladly ski previously tracked couloirs!!

[Trackhead]

Chipping holdsj on rock routes is a permanent alteration that will affect everyone for eons. That is bringing something down to your level.

Cutting a cornice is the prudent and safe thing to do. If you have the 'sack' or stupidity, then go for it. But if it breaks as you approach it and then rolls over and kills you, what have you attained?

Wouldn't want to be run over by this cornice I came across a couple days ago.


I could really care less what people do. Unless they are in my group. I am not partial to watching people cartwheel down couloirs.

[cj001f]

Okay, from a climbing perspective. It is just like "chopping holds" but that doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't do it.

No, it's not. Knocking off loose ice when ice climbing is a much better analogy - you are removing a hazard to you and your party. Gratuitous bashing is frowned upon; simple cleaning isn't.

[Dantheman]

Cut it. There is no shame in not wanting to be at the 2 part of 3,2,1..dropping and suddenly have the bottom drop out on you.

[shera]

I've been eyeing up Siberian Express on Garibaldi - a huge mother cornice forms above it which is a real big objective hazard climbing it

This is very beautiful.

As for the question: Tee it up!!! Jump in if you can.

[Dr. Send]

Pretty much as everyone else said, chipping and gluing holds doesnt remove any hazard, whereas chopping a cornice removes a very real and deadly hazard. The area gets a little grey when people take crowbars to "loose" rock so it doesn't break off "later," but they're not actually manufacturing holds.

[Orange Julius]

Climbers want to bust through monster gargoyles at the top, and climb under them for hours on end? Bwhaahahah! Cut away.

Is it okay if I leave screws/draws hanging on the cornice so long as I don't cut it? Fucking sport climbers.