Smart Trainer Advice? (Wahoo?)

Hey all,

As mentioned in some other threads, my 16yo daughter has been developing an interest in racing. She’s pretty damn fast, so it’s funAF.

I’m trying to help her stay motivated and strong over the cold months. We aren’t much of a Nordork family so it’s hard to stay fit over the winter.

I was looking at the wahoo kickr core, but the Zwift Hub One is cool looking too, and being able to use it with multiple bikes and not needing to worry about the cassettes is a nice touch

Or is there a different trainer I don’t know about? This isn’t my jam (clearly) but I’ll probably use it some this winter too.

Anyone looking to sell their used trainers? Or know of any deals?

Thanks!


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Kickr Core is fairly bombproof and sort of an industry standard. We have two. Highly recommend.

^^ Will echo that. I have an Elite Direto I got on pretty good sale when Performance stores were closing, but would have bought a Kickr Core otherwise. The TACX Flux, Direto models, and others at that mid-tier are usually good value. Many friends either have full Kickr or Cores.

The Zwift device could be pretty good as well. So many of the differences between the top level and lowest level are edge use cases. I don't particularly care about my power being 1-2% accurate, nor having it appropriately simulate 30% grades while riding in my basement. YMMV

Also just for fun, you should consider getting some (used/cheap) rollers in addition to smart trainer. Maybe my old school mentality, but I do think it really makes a difference spending time on them to smooth out your pedal stroke.

I'll add to do your research on how you will connect it to the internet. Via tablet, PC or Apple TV, etc..

For example, I knew that I was going to use my unused Apple TV, and it only accepted two Bluetooth inputs (from memory). Most trainers at that time sent separate signals for power, cadence, and heart rate. I found that the Direto bundled power and cadence into one signal, so I went in that direction.

This might be a bunch of old info as I haven't shopped for one in years, but watch out for that.

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DC Rainmaker does extremely in-depth reviews of smart trainers, probably worth taking a look. For years he did an annual smart trainer roundup in the fall, where he gave recommendations at various price points, but I don't see one for 2023.

Just adding my cheap 2 cents...

I've got a 17-year-old and 14-year-old that race bikes. They keep busy racing nordic in the winter, but use the trainer for winter OYO training and to get at least one day/week on the bike. They love it. They tackle the trainer in earnest in mid-march when the ski trails melt out when road and gravel options are limited.

I have a Wahoo Kickr that my bike is on and nerded out on Wahoo vs. Zwift vs. Tacx vs. etc. for the second set-up. I ended up grabbing the Zwift Hub for them last winter and never once regretted it. It's just about perfect for their needs - and hard to beat the price!

These days there's not enough of a difference to justify the higher priced trainers. The entry levels like the Hub and the Core are terrific.

I guess the question now is core vs hub.

I’m leaning towards the hub because we will be using it with multiple bikes.

Unless I can find a deal on a core I will probably be going that route.


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Why would the hub be better than core for multiple bikes? They’re both wheel off so have to have same cassette speed for both bikes on either trainer.


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Originally Posted by VTskibum

Why would the hub be better than core for multiple bikes? They’re both wheel off so have to have same cassette speed for both bikes on either trainer.


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Because our bikes use different cassettes, so we’d have to swap the cassette on the trainer each time we’d switch bikes. Or, we use my bike and she just drops the saddle.

I think not having to worry about switching the cassette would make me more likely to use it

Unless I’m missing something?


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No, you’re right, that’s a major advantage over the Core. I was missing that it’s wheel off, but doesn’t have a specific cassette!?! Hadn’t read about it enough or noticed that in pictures.

Carry on…


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If you want to consider something a little outside the box, take a look at the Nordtrack S22i studio bike. I've been using this for 2 years instead of an attachable trainer. It's fully compatible with iFit programs. The bike auto adjusts resistance and incline to match the program on the screen. Incline goes from +20% to -10%. Resistance goes plenty high to accommodate any class athlete. There are hundreds of workout to select. From spinning classes to road rides to mountain bike rides. Trainers include pro cyclists like Hincapie, Travis McCabe, and Bobby Julich. https://www.nordictrack.com/exercise...2i-studio-bike
Pros:
- always set-up & ready to go, no fiddling to attach your bike
- lots of workout options to pick from iFit
- auto incline & resistance
- on screen action can is more engaging than staring at a wall or TV show.
Cons:
- it's not your actual road bike (you can change the stock seat to preferred one though)
- it not compact (but has wheels so you can move it)
- it's not linked to Zwift database
- stock wrist heart rate monitor was POS. But bike will record from Garmin watch (or other bluetooth device)

If you have any questions, let me know

edit... you can put any pedals on this. I installed speedplays so both my wife & I can use it.

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Originally Posted by Elkhound Odin

If you want to consider something a little outside the box, take a look at the Nordtrack S22i studio bike. I've been using this for 2 years instead of an attachable trainer. It's fully compatible with iFit programs. The bike auto adjusts resistance and incline to match the program on the screen. Incline goes from +20% to -10%. Resistance goes plenty high to accommodate any class athlete. There are hundreds of workout to select. From spinning classes to road rides to mountain bike rides. Trainers include pro cyclists like Hincapie, Travis McCabe, and Bobby Julich. https://www.nordictrack.com/exercise...2i-studio-bike
Pros:
- always set-up & ready to go, no fiddling to attach your bike
- lots of workout options to pick from iFit
- auto incline & resistance
- on screen action can is more engaging than staring at a wall or TV show.
Cons:
- it's not your actual road bike (you can change the stock seat to preferred one though)
- it not compact (but has wheels so you can move it)
- it's not linked to Zwift database
- stock wrist heart rate monitor was POS. But bike will record from Garmin watch (or other bluetooth device)

If you have any questions, let me know

edit... you can put any pedals on this. I installed speedplays so both my wife & I can use it.

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It is a real bummer that some of these more affordable standalone bikes don't have the ability to connect to Zwift or TrainerRoad...especially since I believe the Nordictrack iFit screen thing is literally running Android under the hood.

I know there are people who are trying to hack them, but either they have nothing working or it is complex and hard to make work.

The Kickr/Wattbike/Tacx type standalone bikes are $$$$ and some don't even have screens and stuff built in. Ive seen these Nordictrack bikes on sale for <$1500, and used ones probably pop up for peanuts.

Would have loved a standalone--can share with my wife, can more easily make fit tweaks (bit factor IMHO--riding position that works on my gravel bike that spends a lot of saddle time climbing might not be ideal for comfortably spinning on a trainer that sits flat)...but I'm not paying $3k+ for an exercise bike. You could buy a nice trainer and a dedicated trainer bike for less...

I have a Kickr (which I really like...I refer to it as "the best cycling purchase I've ever made...not favorite, but: best)...but it was also $$$$$.

If I was looking now, I'd seriously consider:

https://bikecloset.com/product/elite...with-cassette/

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Originally Posted by Tech Tonics

I guess the question now is core vs hub.

I’m leaning towards the hub because we will be using it with multiple bikes.

Unless I can find a deal on a core I will probably be going that route.


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I've got a KICKR that I like a lot but the no cassette feature looks really nice. The cassette that came with my KICKR is garbage and didn't match the gears I have on the bike or, more importantly, shift well. To save having to adjust my derailleur every time I put the bike on the trainer and vice versa, I had to buy an Ultegra cassette for the trainer. Not the end of the world but still. Multiply the issue by a couple or more bikes and that's a real hassle.

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Originally Posted by singlesline

It is a real bummer that some of these more affordable standalone bikes don't have the ability to connect to Zwift or TrainerRoad...especially since I believe the Nordictrack iFit screen thing is literally running Android under the hood.

I know there are people who are trying to hack them, but either they have nothing working or it is complex and hard to make work.

The Kickr/Wattbike/Tacx type standalone bikes are $$$$ and some don't even have screens and stuff built in. Ive seen these Nordictrack bikes on sale for <$1500, and used ones probably pop up for peanuts.

Would have loved a standalone--can share with my wife, can more easily make fit tweaks (bit factor IMHO--riding position that works on my gravel bike that spends a lot of saddle time climbing might not be ideal for comfortably spinning on a trainer that sits flat)...but I'm not paying $3k+ for an exercise bike. You could buy a nice trainer and a dedicated trainer bike for less...

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A spin bike with $500 Garmin power pedals will connect it to zwift - major downside is that the resistance doesn’t change automatically to mimic the grade. The “output” needed to climb a hill is still the same - but it is a bit easier as you don’t have to shift to adapt to grade changes.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

A spin bike with $500 Garmin power pedals will connect it to zwift - major downside is that the resistance doesn’t change automatically to mimic the grade. The “output” needed to climb a hill is still the same - but it is a bit easier as you don’t have to shift to adapt to grade changes.

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This defeats the whole purpose of a smart trainer and the Zwift program.
The ability for Zwift to control the trainer, add resistance, or set the power output in ERG mode is the major feature of the current technology. Other wise you should just buy an old used $100 spin bike and watch a Richard Simmons video.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by singlesline

It is a real bummer that some of these more affordable standalone bikes don't have the ability to connect to Zwift or TrainerRoad...especially since I believe the Nordictrack iFit screen thing is literally running Android under the hood.

I know there are people who are trying to hack them, but either they have nothing working or it is complex and hard to make work.

The Kickr/Wattbike/Tacx type standalone bikes are $$$$ and some don't even have screens and stuff built in. Ive seen these Nordictrack bikes on sale for <$1500, and used ones probably pop up for peanuts.

Would have loved a standalone--can share with my wife, can more easily make fit tweaks (bit factor IMHO--riding position that works on my gravel bike that spends a lot of saddle time climbing might not be ideal for comfortably spinning on a trainer that sits flat)...but I'm not paying $3k+ for an exercise bike. You could buy a nice trainer and a dedicated trainer bike for less...

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You can get the SB20 for the same price. Seems like it's been on sale around that price for a long time now. I think last year it was even less and came with a free year of Zwift. That said, the internet rumor mill is that Stages as a company is on life support. So buyer beware.

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Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive

You can get the SB20 for the same price. Seems like it's been on sale around that price for a long time now. I think last year it was even less and came with a free year of Zwift. That said, the internet rumor mill is that Stages as a company is on life support. So buyer beware.

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4 months ago the internet rumor was that Wahoo was on it last legs......

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

This defeats the whole purpose of a smart trainer and the Zwift program.
The ability for Zwift to control the trainer, add resistance, or set the power output in ERG mode is the major feature of the current technology. Other wise you should just buy an old used $100 spin bike and watch a Richard Simmons video.

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I already said it comes with a major downside.

I disagree that it defeats the “whole” purpose of zwift.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dee Hubbs

4 months ago the internet rumor was that Wahoo was on it last legs......

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True. But reports have been that Stages warranty/customer service assistance has been extremely difficult to get as a result of whatever's going on there.

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Originally Posted by bennymac

I already said it comes with a major downside.

I disagree that it defeats the “whole” purpose of zwift.

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With no gradient changes and no ERG mode, I'm a also bit confused about what the point of Zwift would be. I guess you could still do group rides?

Agree w others? W/o smart resistance Zwift is pretty useless. Trainerroad or following prescribed workouts would still be viable though


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You can still race - the pedals send power and cadence to zwift just like a smart trainer would. You can do workouts - you just have to adjust the tension to get the power in the targeted zone. You can still ride up the Alpe and see how fast you can do it in. You can do group rides as well. Not saying this is ideal - I made that clear repeatedly- but if someone has a spin bike or even a peleton bike this is a way to do it.

Even “less ideal” than that set up = there are lots of people out there Zwifting on “dumb” trainers who don’t even have power being measured - Zwift has an algorithm to guess their power. There are enoigh people out there doing that - to the level that some Zwift races don’t allow these users into their events because this is not a great way to measure the riders true performance. To be clear I’m not saying this setup is ideal - just that there are enough people doing this that restrictions had to be developed.

I just bought the Zwift and added my old steel framed biked to it for a dedicated trainer set up. Love it. I use a Garmin head unit and I use FasCat training program. The biggest thing I had to get used to was never shifting the bike, its single speed heaven. Garmin and trainer work together and set power to the workout of the day. I use the trainer now more than ever,

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

Timely thread, thinking of grabbing a trainer. I never thought I'd want one so never payed any attention to them - looking at them now the technology looks pretty impressive and Zwift looks pretty damn fun.

I see 11 speed cassettes seem to be the standard. Can I simply swap my Giant Contend AR's 8 speed cassette onto the trainer? Are there any other compatibility issues to consider?

EDIT also, can I assume the tech has improved considerably in the last several years? Noticed on a local buy and sell there's a used Kickr V1 from 2016 for 400CAD. I generally don't mind used but that's pretty old.

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V2 rolled out in ‘16 so that one may be older. Looks like V2 got quieter.

I have a 2017 V3 that I bought on closeout in 2019. It’s a sweet machine. It’s pretty loud but not as loud as my old mag trainer or rollers. Looks like V4 got quieter still and also a bigger flywheel. If I was in the market now I’d look for aV4+.

I found this guide to the different generations.

Thanks beater. After reading reviews of the older ones I found a deal on one new saw just grabbed it. I appreciate the info all the same. Deleted my post above.

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Originally Posted by smartyiak

I have a Kickr (which I really like...I refer to it as "the best cycling purchase I've ever made...not favorite, but: best)...but it was also $$$$$.

If I was looking now, I'd seriously consider:

https://bikecloset.com/product/elite...with-cassette/

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This is a real good deal for being "peak trainer season"

There were some ebay/amazon sellers for a little bit less in the summer, but $400 is pretty good for what is supposed to be a higher end model. I'm happy with mine so for.

My biggest complaint is honestly that I wish the handle were higher up--where it is located now makes it a little awkward to pick up and move with the bike attached. Everything else seems to work fine, but it is my first smart trainer so I don't have much to compare to.

These things do appear to be improving over time. My uneducated guess is that newer trainers will have more consistent erg-modes than older trainers. Erg mode matters for training plans with target wattage, doesn't matter for things like Zwift racing or just riding a virtual environment where resistance changes with hills.

Other upgrades are things like higher max wattage and quieter operation--both of which might not matter too much to different users.

Incline adjustment might be fun? If I could get a Kickr Climb or Elite Rizer for like $200 I would do it. Might help with long-term comfort by varying the seating position, but otherwise isn't really essential for training.

OK I can see why everyone uses mats and big ass fans. MG what a sweaty mess I was.

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

OK I can see why everyone uses mats and big ass fans. MG what a sweaty mess I was.

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Yeah I used to have mine in my unheated detached garage but my fingers and toes would get real cold below about 40 degrees, I'd be shirtless. Plus it's totally infiltrated by our bad inversions. Now I'm inside in a spare room. Got a massive drop cloth folded up, a towel on the bike, and a big ass filtered fan I can put in the window pointed right at me.

Not having wind resistance on the road bike makes a hudge difference!

I have the TacX neobike and it's great. Direto was also fine, but not having to fiddle with/wear out drivetrain is great. Also a lot quieter than a bike on a direct drive IMO.

As I've been getting more time on the trainer...man erg mode is brutal.

It is just relentless at holding you accountable to your workout. There's no ability to "sit up" and pedal less hard. If you pedal slower or shift gears, it just makes it that much harder to pedal. I know that's the *point* of erg mode, but it burns.

On a similar note, in Zwift, you get the virtual "gates" up ahead to tell you when an interval is going to be over, but in erg mode there's no way to "power through" and pedal hard to get to the end and make the suffering the way you can if you are doing laps outside or sprinting to a known landmark. If you start to pedal harder, the gate just drifts further away like it is taunting you.

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

OK I can see why everyone uses mats and big ass fans. MG what a sweaty mess I was.

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Fans w a remote are the best. Also have a cheap box fan setup on a remote power switch when it really gets going. I start w a shirt and ramp up fans progressively till it’s go time w the box fan on max. Only way I can make it bearable. If I’m just riding mostly Z2 don’t need to much


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Yeah about that. Have a laugh on me.

My fan came with a remote. Couldn't understand why it was necessary so after a few months of not touching it I tossed it. Same as a remote for a space heater before that. I recall a car stereo remote maybe starting this trend.

Now here I am questioning why I don't have a remote for my damn fan.

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Originally Posted by VTskibum

Fans w a remote are the best. Also have a cheap box fan setup on a remote power switch when it really gets going. I start w a shirt and ramp up fans progressively till it’s go time w the box fan on max. Only way I can make it bearable. If I’m just riding mostly Z2 don’t need to much


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This is what I like about the smart bike too, it has two fans that ramp up automatically with effort/wattage. Definitely better than the box fan.

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Originally Posted by singlesline

As I've been getting more time on the trainer...man erg mode is brutal.

It is just relentless at holding you accountable to your workout. There's no ability to "sit up" and pedal less hard. If you pedal slower or shift gears, it just makes it that much harder to pedal. I know that's the *point* of erg mode, but it burns.

On a similar note, in Zwift, you get the virtual "gates" up ahead to tell you when an interval is going to be over, but in erg mode there's no way to "power through" and pedal hard to get to the end and make the suffering the way you can if you are doing laps outside or sprinting to a known landmark. If you start to pedal harder, the gate just drifts further away like it is taunting you.

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After twenty or more years of riding training days slave to heart rate monitor intervals, power measurements, erg modes etc, it is wild to read this from someone new to it. Good reminder of just how numb I've become to suffering.

Anyway, I'd like to tell you it becomes better but it doesn't. You just get used to the hell.

Well this newb is loving my Core. Three days on in a row since I got it.

Couple things I can't figure out. Wheelies - they're damn near impossible on this set up. And when the hill is just too weak when I get off to push my bike up Zwift doesn't seem to track that.

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Originally Posted by Thaleia

Well this newb is loving my Core. Three days on in a row since I got it.

Couple things I can't figure out. Wheelies - they're damn near impossible on this set up. And when the hill is just too weak when I get off to push my bike up Zwift doesn't seem to track that.

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I'll agree with you there - Zwift isn't ready for progressive style. Just the other day I did a no-hander up a hill and didn't even get bonus points. WTF.

Oh, and this is a pretty solid deal on a direto

https://www.universalcycles.com/shop....php?id=108162

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Originally Posted by EWG

Anyway, I'd like to tell you it becomes better but it doesn't. You just get used to the hell.

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"It never gets easier, you just get faster"

Can confirm the first part, the jury is out on the second part

Honestly can't believe how much I've been enjoying Zwift on the Kickr Core.

Never been a gym guy, have never trained or anything.

Been mtb'ing forever for fun. Always respected road bikers speed, distance, dedication etc but never thought it was for me. During the pandemic lock downs I wanted to try a gravel bike for something different. Due to supply issues I compromised and got an entry level road bike and put wider tires on it.

Fell in love with long easy rides, and started doing hillier stuff. Immediately noticed the fitness aspect of it. Lost a decent amount of weight. (always been a bigger guy, at one point I was 260 lbs)

Got this set up right before Christmas and haven't looked back.

If you're on the fence give it a try. I sure wish I did sooner.