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A friend and old acquaintance of mine were involved in a slide near whistler yesterday. 1 buried and deceased. When the victim was found 3 hrs later his avy bag was ripped off and his beacon was in search mode. Very sad stuff, hopefully we can learn something from this.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...tler-1.4010574
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sout...uring/?fref=nf
i am now questioning wether it is worth it.
A good friend of mine was in that area yesterday in a large group and hearing this news definitely gave me pause. I was relieved when I found out he was not involved. Sorry about your friend (or your friend's friend?).
I have wondered about various beacons and how they are set to transmit / send mode and whether a tumble with a blow in the right spot could knock it out of place. I have a Mammut where you have to do a multi-point press down and slide over to switch to search or turn it off but I'm not sure about others.
thanks.
word is, the beacon a Pieps DSP sport, was in his pants pocket and not in the harness ( i also do this...) which may have allowed it to switch from transmit to recieve. I will be using the harness from now on. Also to clarify his pack was still on but the actual bag was split open or ripped off.
This is a sad story. Genuine condolences to all involved.
I can see how the large and exposed sliding design of the Pieps Sport/Pro send/seach/off switch could possibly be activated by friction in a pants pocket during a slide.
I also carry my beacon in my pants pocket sometimes, but it has a very different switch design (Mammut Pulse/Element)
Yeah, I always carry my beacon in my pants pocket but the thinking there has to do with a regular ski crash (far more likely) and not wanting a hard object right over my abdomen / ribs, although I suppose it would apply to possible trauma in an avalanche as well.
Sorry about your friend.
Peips DSP sliders wrap around so pocket orientation doesn't matter.
What I want to know is was did this person suffer unsurvivable trauma or was the beacon otherwise damaged beyond function? The forces involved with ripping the airbag off suggest potential for that. Because I remember Manuel saying essentially nobody has been pantsed by an avalanche without suffering unsurvibable trauma.
Additionally, the DSP's can have a motion sensor based AUTO-REVERT-TO-TRANSMIT. However, Peips chose to DISABLE this by default and make this option not user selectable... you have to go to their service center to enable it. Had this beacon been enabled, it would have started transmitting roughly 4 minutes after the avalanche stopped despite having the switch in search mode.
I wear my Pulse in my pants. The beacons replacing the Pulse/Element will have similar but improved switches that will not be susceptible to this type of traumatic mode switching.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peips DSP Manual
damn :(
sorry about your friend Chuurles.
So sorry for your loss
How do we know it was ever set correctly to transmit?
On the pieps its easy to accidentally set it to search when turning on if you don't visually check, or do a proper group check.
I always use a pieps backup every day I go out. It also works with any other brand beacon in case yours doesn't auto revert or if your beacon stops working for a variety of reasons.
We don't, however, a "left-in-search-all-day" mode of failure is extremely unlikely in groups wearing other beacons, particularly large groups as this one was, because the "left-in-search" beacon goes bonkers from all the other transmitters and it is a bit hard to miss the cacaphony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunder
Every beacon on the market has auto-revert and Peips are the only beacons where the user cannot enable/disable themselves (have to go to a shop).Quote:
I always use a pieps backup every day I go out. It also works with any other brand beacon in case yours doesn't auto revert or if your beacon stops working for a variety of reasons.
I'd say to someone considering a Peips Backup: do a TH check every time and get your auto-revert working (and understand how it works on your particular beacon), then let's split that $90 I saved you.
Beacon transmit failures in avalanche accidents fall into 4 categories (from common to rare):
1. Preventable by trailhead check
2. Unsurvivably traumatic slides
3. Preventable by auto-revert
4. VERY rare other circumstances that I cannot give you a real-world example of
#4 is where a peips backup will really help
I also wear carry my DSP Sport in a pocket and became concerned after reading about this tragedy. Here is a video showing how the slider can be unlocked in a beacon pouch:
https://youtu.be/dMtrMYsMWoY
From the notes under the video:
Quote:
Simon Thomson21 hours ago
Good video bud. If I can add something it would be that the transceiver should be turned screen facing your body in the pouch, most manufactures recommend this position as it protects the screen during a violent crash or avalanche. In this position you wouldn't have the issue of the buckle landing over the button and chance of it sliding. Just my two cents...
matty markiewicz15 hours ago
Simon Thomson I should have mentioned in this video that I've had this happen when it's facing down too. The lock button can press against your chest and move the slider.
Dan Batchelor20 hours ago
Simon, I was just going to say the same thing... it fits in the pouch really well flipped towards your body, and hopefully that eliminates the buckle pressure point to press the unlock release button accidentally?
matty markiewicz15 hours ago
Dan Batchelor I've had this happen when wearing it both ways.
Very sad new. My condolences. Thank you for the post.
Tomorrow is the three year anniversary of an incident where I lost a very good friend of mine. Similar (but different) circumstances, beacon failure, Airbag failed to deploy.
You are not alone with your internal struggle Re: is it worth it. It's been hard getting back on the horse. But, My perspective, mentality and risk assessments have changed (for the better) since then. Our group has really grown out of the tragedy, and we have tried to apply our lessons learned, and those of others, into our daily practice... I don't know what I would do without skiing, without the adventures, bonds, relationships, and stoke it has generated for me over the years. It's hard to reconcile how something so awesome can deliver something so brutal. You will eventually find a balance that's right for you. Much love.
Sorry to hear about your friend. I haven't lost anyone close to me, but enough people with much more experience than me have died in the last few years that it has definitely affected me. If I am honest with myself, 1) low-angle meadow skipping bores me and everything I truly want to ski is avalanche terrain, and 2) no matter how careful you are, if you ski avalanche terrain your long-term probability of being caught in an avalanche gradually approaches 100%. Not that I don't enjoy a nice mellow tour, any day in the mountains is a good day, but I'd always rather be skiing steeper rowdier stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuuurles
Not that I'm going to stop BC skiing completely, but I am a lot more risk averse and selective now. I tend to find myself getting more excited about mountain biking these days, and a big part of that is not having to worry about dying in a cold white tomb.
OP: condolences for your loss.
What's the advantage/purpose of carrying your beacon in your pants pocket? Not trolling here, just genuinely curious as I've always used the harness on my body. Faster/easier gloved access without unzipping jacket?
Basically this. Easier access and a bit easier to do fine-grain search down low on the snow.Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh
My AIARE instructors preferred pocket access for this reason.
1. Quickest accessQuote:
Originally Posted by gramboh
2. Avoids the frequent mistake of wearing the beacon outside all the layers when you strip down while ascending or under 2-3 layers when you layer up for descending or the inconvenience/discomfort necessary to avoid this problem.
3. Easier fine searching / ergonomics
4. Not having hard object over solid organs in a fall (Liver).
5. No weight of the harness
I've been doing it for 7 years
When doing a fine search you are attempting to pinpoint the beacons location.
I prefer to have the target as close to my airway as possible. Every ride I have ever taken has involved my banging into things and ending up bruised on the areas that are covered by pants pockets.
Harness weight? Are you fucking joking?
Carry your beacon wherever you like but there is a reason that the manufacturers build them into a harness.
I often wear an equipment vest and/or chest vhf radio harness, which interferes with a beacon harness, so the beacon goes into the pants pocket.
Another subtle thing I noticed during a practice scenario this year:Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh
When you're not the primary searcher but are still in the fray (assisting rescue prior to probe strike by assembling probe, shovel etc.) your beacon still needs to be in search mode, and needs to be stowed somewhere so you can use your hands. For me, it was awkward to try to stash my beacon (Tracker 2) in the harness w/o risking hitting the switch to revert to transmit. The tether that attaches the beacon to the harness also makes it awkward to stash in a pocket during this situation.
FWIW I'm a beacon in pocket guy. My touring pants have a dedicated pocket with a sewn loop for the tether. The scenario above arose when demonstrating a rescue. I used the harness in that case because I was uncertain of the current AIARE recommendation and the company line of the organization I was working with, and did not want to demonstrate conflicting practice.
Where I adjusted my harness typically was within about 6-8" of where my beacon sits in my waist pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by bunion
If that matters, then why don't you adjust your harness to sit on your upper sternum?
Not really a motivation for me, but I've heard some people say so. There are spandexers buying Peips Micros to save 60g.Quote:
Harness weight? Are you fucking joking?
And there is a reason manufacturers and industry leaders say it is fine to put it in your pocket.Quote:
Carry your beacon wherever you like but there is a reason that the manufacturers build them into a harness.
Think for a moment... how many times have you been on a tour with someone who is wearing their bacon exposed to the elements because it is sunny and warm even though this against what we teach? Or under their shell and two layers of down because it is cold even though it will take an extra 10-20 seconds dicking around with zippers? Or people who move ackwardly or slowly or are incapable of getting their beacon really low to the snow in the fine search even after you stop and help them adjust their harness and bungee? Those are the real reasons I wear it in a pocket.
They supply a good harness so everyone has a good way to carry them. Not all pants have an appropriate pocket (sewn in, with a sewn loop tether) to carry a beacon.Quote:
Originally Posted by bunion
I doubt there is a documented case of someone caught in an avalanche being depants-ed that didn't die from trauma.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by doebedoe
And Manuel Genshwein checked for the existence of such a case... and couldn't find one. He made that point at a training I attended in 2010 along with the other points above and that is when I started putting my beacon in my pants.
Back on topic: My condolences to the family and to you, Chuuurles and his other friends. Sad day for everyone involved.
So the Pieps doesn't default to transmit after a period?
So the Pieps can easily accidently be switched to search?
How didn't he know that he was in Search? Wouldn't it make a lot of noise finding the other beacons?
Did people search for him and couldn't find him after the slide?
WTF
Attachment 202098Quote:
Date
2017-03-04
Location
Hanging Lake, Callaghan Valley near Whistler
Location Description
Province
BC
Mountain Range
Coast Mountains
Coordinates
50.1491 -123.082 Lat/Long Decimal Degrees
Elevation
1600m
Activity
Backcountry Skiing
Involvement
1
Injury
0
Fatality
1
Description
One skier was fully buried in an avalanche that occurred on a slope above Hanging Lake, approximately 10 km northwest of Whistler. The avalanche was reported as a size 2.5, 100-150 m wide, running 400 m, with a crown depth of 80-100 cm. The avalanche occurred on a northwest aspect and slid on a layer of facets over a crust. The victim was the third of a party of six to descend the slope. No other party members were caught in the slide. The victim was located at an elevation of 1400 m; the elevation of the start zone was approximately 1600 m. The victim was washed through a stand of trees during the descent. Rescuers were unable to locate the victim using a transceiver search, despite the victim having a transceiver on their person. The transceiver, worn in a hip pocket, was found with the switch in the “search” position, for reasons unknown at this time. The victim deployed an avalanche balloon pack, but it was found to have sustained significant damage. The victim did not employ the pack’s crotch strap. Nearby parties as well as search and rescue assisted with the rescue and a probe line was established. The victim was eventually located with the help of a rescue dog approximately four hours after the avalanche occurred. CPR was initiated but the victim was pronounced deceased by a doctor on site.
thanks for the info and advice.
From what i have heard the crotch strap was used and the CAA report is incorrect on that.
Sad story and sorry for your loss.
This makes me wonder if an impact with a tree could have switched the transceiver mode.Quote:
The transceiver, worn in a hip pocket, was found with the switch in the “search” position, for reasons unknown at this time. The victim deployed an avalanche balloon pack, but it was found to have sustained significant damage.
I was just up in Canada skiing very similar terrain. It did not sound uncommon for the CMH guides to use beacon pockets instead of harnesses. One noted several of the comments above as to why it was their preference.
RIP. Condolences to the family and friends of the one who passed away.
I thought of doing this, as quite a few guides I know do it. Then I spoke to one who was swept in an avalanche with his beacon in his pocket and it was broken from some sort of impact, even though he remained uninjured and on top at the end of it all. After some reflection, particularly on one of the stated purposes of using the harness correctly, I decided the negatives I could identify about the harness were outweighed by the 2 ways it minimizes the chance of damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
It's just as easy to come up with examples of the opposite. I had a member of my party get swept by a slide while skinning. It was warm, so he was down to his polypro and the beacon was therefore outside all his layers. He was buried up to his chest, so we found him quickly. His beacon was literally hanging by a thread on a boot buckle after the harness broke. It wasn't even that big of a slide. The beacon would have been more protected in a pants pocket. I can't imagine going back to a harness, for all the reasons that have been previously mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by cultvo
You could always carry a backup beacon: http://www.pieps.com/en/product/pieps-backup
I was looking at some pictures from earlier this week and busted myself being guilty of this. I know better, but managed to overlook it anyway. I like wearing a harness so I'll likely continue to use it but I'm going to be more diligent about it's placement. I also think I'm going to get some backup beacons.Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenboy
I'm mostly a lurker in this forum, but wanted to let you guys know I appreciate the discussion and that I'm making some positive changes/improvements based on it. Thanks.
BACKUP BEACON:
I say it's a waste of $100. Plus, where will you wear it?
INSTEAD OF A BACKUP:
1. Do a TH check every time
2. Carry your beacon smartly
3. Activate auto-revert (and understand how it works on your particular beacon).
Beacon transmit failures in avalanche accidents fall into 4 categories (from common to rare):
1. Preventable by trailhead check
2. Unsurvivably traumatic slides
3. Preventable by auto-revert
4. VERY rare other circumstances that I cannot give you a real-world example of
#4 is where a peips backup will really help
I really like the group check function on the Element I just bought because it's performed on power up in send mode. This should prevent not switching back to send from search at the start of a tour. The automatic auto revert is a nice function too without having to go to a service center like the DSP Sport. I think the switch for power/send/search is smart and easy to use as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit
I've been a DSP Sport user for a couple of months so all this concerns me.
a. I've always worn a harness
b. Peips recommends the switch goes toward the body
c. I don't like that the harness switch conceals the "on light" which I feel is a good easy "am I on" self check.
d. beacon checks are non-negotiable. IMO, many people do them wrong. The last person needs to "check the checker" and then everything should go silent. [I don't like the "everyone go on receive" check for multiple reasons].
e. I don't find the switch confusing or difficult to operate but I am concerned about the "switch to search or off issue"
f. Revert to send is a great feature but it requires on increase in awareness/education including, IMO, knowing who in your group has the system enables and knowing how to operate each one of your partners beacon. I consider it an "advanced" feature for this reason.
Got a DSP Pro when the Black Diamond 40% code was going round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles
Me too.
Combined with the clunkier design than the previous DSP and the worse harness and the fact that leash can't easily switch to work for use in pants pocket.
I'm not really very happy with the thing.
Element.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit