http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/...y/-/index.html
Charge blew and the safe zone was not safe. Found in one minute, unburied in 8, CPR, in ICU. Hoping for the best.
http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/...y/-/index.html
Charge blew and the safe zone was not safe. Found in one minute, unburied in 8, CPR, in ICU. Hoping for the best.
oh man. +++++++++++++++++
Bad news all around. Sorry to hear this.
Fuck. Keep fighting 'troller
Damn! Tis has not been a good year for the Alpine Meadows family - an instructor there died last month in the backcountry.
Hoping for the best for Teh 'Troller. +++++vibes+++++
she was actually in the resort before it opened.
and the slide zone should prolly just move to the tahoe conditions thread. in the past three days we have had a slide at squaw that flew off the fingers big enough to knock people off the chair. a guy took a ride in scott chute at alpine meadows (he's ok) closing the chair. on the other side of the hill the patroller (keep fighting dude!) was trying to open sherwood bowl when that went huge. the same day we had the sad events at donner pass ski ranch. it's been a busy week and not in a good way
sadly, he passed :(
+++++++ vibes to those he left behind. Thanks for 28 years keeping us safe on the mountain.
So sad to hear, and especially tough on the family being Christmas. Thoughts and prayers to all those affected!
Yes I just came across the bad news on a National news site, This hits way too close to home for many on this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by powdork
Quote:
TRUCKEE, Calif. – A member of a Sierra Nevada ski resort's patrol team who was injured after being caught in an avalanche has died.
Alpine Meadows said in a statement on Tuesday that 53-year-old Bill Foster died at Renown Regional Medical Center in Reno, Nev., where he was taken after the avalanche a day earlier on the resort near Lake Tahoe.
Foster was buried in a slide that had been intentionally set with an explosive device by a senior member of the ski patrol team. The team was doing avalanche control in an area on the back side of resort. The area was closed to the public.
Resort officials say the avalanche broke much higher and wider on the slope than in past snow safety missions.
hoping this is poor reporting here
i'm picturing him as part of the team working the same route, not finishing a route and skiing down.Quote:
Foster was skiing in the Sherwood Bowl about 10:45 a.m. Monday when the ski patrollers set off the avalanche. They were performing routine snow safety at the time, in an area closed to the public, the resort said
and i want to punch the first commenter on the kcra site in the nuts
I doubt that's correct. Other reports were saying he was part of the AC team, and it sounded like the Squaw incident a couple years back where they tossed a charge and it broke above him--higher than in the past. Pretty darn sure he wasn't skiing below.
I try to ignore online comments like those. The Chronicle comments are the worst. I responded though. Couldn't help it.
Sad news, vibes to family and friends, and to all "trollers out there.
Yeah there was a clear description that he was in the AC group, it ran bigger than the well experienced group expected and either caught him up high or below.
Best wishes for his family, friends & coworkers. RIP
Any of you guys work patrol at alpine-ish mountains where bombing/cutting is a given for any real storm?
This 'safe zone' thing is really bugging me. It's exactly what killed a patroller at squaw two years ago, one drainage over from alpine meadows. I understand the typical one to three feet overnight kind of deal with a really well understood and good snowpack. But extraordinary circumstances call for not exactly ordinary responses. At a certain point, don't you have to deem the only safe zones as those on ridges? I've watched these guys at alpine bomb this exact zone and I have a pretty good feel for where they hit and in what order. We've got without a doubt one of the most fucked up scenarios in the snow I can remember right now. It just seems to me that when situations build like they have here, there's really no reason to have people on slope anywhere underneath the expected movement.
Alpine meadows has one of the most paranoid (and conversely safe) set of patrol routes and policies of anywhere in tahoe.......by a long shot. But given the likelihood of sympathetics and unholy tracking around knolls with this last cycle, it just seems nuts to me to have people below anything but a ridge.
Not to question patrol's skill and judgement, but it does make me wonder if this would be a time to drop charges from a heli. In the future, maybe more remote avalanche control methods might get used in Tahoe for safety-Daisy Bell, heli routes, avalauncher, Gazex etc.?
^^^^^^^or get on out there with full on hockey gear and abs packs already deployed:)
or let the shit sit for about 72 hours or so. what's the hurry?
rog
I'd like to see a thorough explanation before questioning the veracity with which a 28y patroller approached a situation. Doesn't feel right to question imo. Plenty of time for public 'discovery'
This seems like a situation where it's actually appropriate to throw the hands up and say "fuck. what could we have done"
Take the time for this to sink in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bromontana
Q: When did this occur?
A: Christmas Holidays
The operational pressures that are on ski patrols to get terrain open for what can be the make or break portion of their season is immense.
It doesn't always come from above (management) often it comes from within (ourselves).
Yes, plenty of time for public discovery.
Meanwhile, RIP Patroller Foster and thank you for your hard work.
well said, Bunion.
RIP, and condolences to friends and family.
Expected is the key word. From the description it sounds like it fractured significantly higher and wider than they've ever seen before. When you do control work all the time I imagine it becomes difficult to always get everyone in the absolute safest position humanly possible, due to time and logistical constraints.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo
And moving someone out of from under it (by elevation, not runout) would move them out of harm's way. That's kind of the point. Everyone paying attention knows what we've got going on right now is nowhere near normal. I haven't seen anywhere near the number of bomb induced slides as someone patrolling for multiple decades, but I have seen things break sympathetically and around knolls...ON sherwood.....which is why I said that. To put it more bluntly, when this kind of snowpack exists, expect everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by TahoeJ
I've watched these guys bomb sherwood before while I was over by twin peaks. It's systematic and like every other mountain, very mapped, planned and procedural. And there ARE people beneath ridges on knolls when bombs go above them. It just seems like there would be a second layout when things are especially sketchy and they haven't opened that terrain at all for the year yet. Hell maybe there is and this was it.
You should see some of the shlt mt rose does when they bomb the chutes. They'll have a guy bombing or ski cutting the top gate, with two or three people in lower gates off to the sides a good 60-100 feet below the ridges. That's insane to me.
If AM didn't have a secondary formation before I suspect they will now. Anyway, pure conjecture on my part, but I do suspect time is a major factor that leads to more risks being taken. I always hate it when people start bitching about this chair or that chair opening late - I say let patrol do their job as safely as possible even if it means we all have to wait a little longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo
today, in particular, I feel for all the patrollers who have to go out and do difficult, stressful work, in this busy season, with a heavy heart.
I hope the function of community is strong enough there that people are able to pull together and ensure these folks have some love and support during the next week or so of this holiday madness.
ATM we can do this, but for the sake of the next patroller we should absolutely ask questions so that we can find out what could have been done, because I refuse to accept that nothing could have been doneQuote:
Originally Posted by Bromontana
We can always do better
May the victim Rest in Peace
Kidwoo,
Your backseat driving is a little nauseous. Your reference to Mt. Rose control procedures is way unfounded and infers that the weather and underlying snow stratigraphy are not factors in decision making in hazard mitigation procedures at Class A avalanche areas. I believe you last had a pass at Rose in 05/06 and not sure how often you buy tickets.
"All knowledge about reality begins with experience and terminates in it," Albert Einstein
Quote:
Originally Posted by Italiaski
That was a bit of a rough comeback. Kidwoo does spend time in Backcountry. And he does like Da Chutes at the Rose.
Mt. Rose has had a Patroller seriously injured while doing control work in the Chutes. (I suspect they learned and made adjustments)
I don't see bashing on the patrol, seems that opening and keeping open the terrain that today’s customer demands is a (Learning experience) for everyone.
And the point of this thread, Very sorry that a good man died doing his job so we can all have fun.
My hope is that lessons have been learned and patrol continues to both open the GNAR so we can slay the pow, and they keep themselves and us safe while they do it.
My understanding on the Squaw slide was the the patroller who was killed was on a ridge--the Hogsback --to the side and uphill from the patroller throwing the charge on Headwall face, which is particularly difficult to control safely because its upper half is convex. I believe Squaw modified it's procedures to allow that face to be bombed from the chair and pylons are in place at the top of this face for patrol to anchor to--someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't heard where on Sherwood South face the slide took place but it's also convex at the top--no nice cornice to throw a charge over from the ridge, which might have contributed. It's a broad fairly featureless face except for a couple of gullies (in one of which there was a fatal slide some years ago I believe and where I saw a post control slide another time--no one caught)..There really isn't a good safe zone on that face except for the very top, and obviously the patrollers have to be close enough together to see each other and help each other if one does get caught. Alpine has an avalauncher I think (they had an artillery piece that blew up and killed a forest service worker some years ago--and didn't the army take back all their artillery when we invaded Iraq) but it's on the other side of the mountain. Sherwood is the backside--there's a road to the bottom which is probably not open right after storms, but otherwise the only access to the face is from the top. Tough situation. And I think patrol gets caught more often than we realize. My son was on the Squaw patrol (at the time of the death there) and told me every veteran had taken at least one ride. My knowledge is second hand so I appreciate someone pointing out any errors I have made.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo
Alpine still has artillery on the other side. They used to have a recoiless rifle as well, replaced with a howitzer which is what I believe misfired and resulted in the fatality some years back. Not sure if they have an avalauncher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Italiaski
If you're going to stalk me, at least send me some creepy flowers.
Are you now going to tell me no patroller has been flushed doing exactly what I described in the chutes? Because you and I both know that's not true.
If you've got something to share, do it. I'm just asking what to me are obvious questions arising from some accidents that (yes, in hindsight) could have some obvious solutions for the future. Either answer them or take your pearl clutching somewhere else.
Thank you for a real answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by old goat
kidwoo I hear wot your saying.
I regularly question peoples percieved "saftey"
a patroller going for a ride ski cutting is not uncommon,
a patroller getting killed by a bomb another patroller detonated ???
Maybe KSL should take some of the $50 mil they're dropping into Squaw "improvements" and throw down for an Avalauncher at the bottom of Sherwood...
snapt, you know the story on their existing artillery? Because I know for a fact the howitzer they had pre-9/11 was repo'ed by the army for Afghanistan (not Iraq, as old goat mentioned). But then I've heard of them using artillery since then. Just curious what the story was. They use it for AC on the road too, right?
Well, Alpine still has the warning signs in several places about not touching or going near any intact artillery shells - so I assume they still have something in that regard.
Nah.Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
I would pay to see that though. :D
http://www.sierrasun.com/article/200...News/104270003Quote:
Originally Posted by LightRanger
I think it sits somewhere off of scott peak. I've heard the story on the steps to get it. They went through training at some depot out near Susanville, then brought it home. Apparently there are tons of them laying around. Never heard that it got repoed, I always thought it was older "obsolete" Vietnam Era but maybe that's a replacement for one that got repoed. Who knows. They use it for the road, but I've been told they also have a bombing route that entails patrol Riding KT-22 early in the AM then working over to Alpine Meadows road, not sure how far over they'll work from that end or where they descend once done. I did hear some of them worry that KSL would start asking them to start shooting over ridges to help clear parts of Squaw, but that hasn't materialized and likely never will, way too much to go wrong. The thing has a huge kill radius. I'm assuming the road closure for so long the other day was due to a ton of slide activity and trying to get that much snow cleared of the hill and then off the road?
An avalauncher would make sense for Sherwood, although maybe there's some liability of overshooting to the frontside?
From reading about the infamous AM slide in the 80's that was definitely a route they used in the past (riding up KT) - seems logical they would still do the same for control work above the road and work their way over towards Estelle. I saw some patrol up there the other morning (our lease has a view of the back of KT) so it was definitely up close vs. long range, at least then. No idea exactly where they came down, however. Perhaps now that Squaw and Alpine are co-owned Squaw patrol helps out with that during their normal routine while up on KT.Quote:
Originally Posted by snapt
Thanks for straightening me out on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by snapt
My son told me that after the Squaw accident they got some kind of equipment--he said mortar--could that be right? --but it didn't have enough range for Headwall.
The AM road does regularly get covered by control slides. Rumor has it a resident used to park his truck in front of his garage any time he wanted AM to buy him a new one. There was a dispute between AM and Placer county re who had liability for the road control work, since it's a county road. AM briefly threatened to suspend control work for the county until the county backed down. That one was in the papers.
A Wall of White is the book about the AM slide--available at the Bookstore at Hooligan Rocks in Truckee (please buy it there--only bookstore left in the area).
Dude haven't you noticed, there's not a single 'old looking' garage door on any of those houses in that strip?
Slides ripping through a few of those has happened at least 4-5 times since I've lived here.
I wouldn't care to live on that strip. I wonder how Troy Caldwell's house survives--well located I guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by kidwoo