Finally! Point and Shoots for Skiers!

For the last 4+ years, I've been repeating:

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Originally Posted by Summit

There are next to no p&s cameras out there with FPS higher than 2fps because manufacturers sacrificed framerate for megapixels.

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But over the last year or so, some new products have come to market; I actually have recommendations for new point and shoot cameras, so I thought I'd make a thread. (I'll hopefully add to it after PMA/CES '12)

What makes a good point and shoot camera for a skier? IMO

Optical Viewfinder
Full Res Continuous shooting >2fps for >5sec
Image sensor 1/1.8" (or more specifically, more than 3mm^2/MP)
Quality lens >4x zoom
Full manual controls
Operable with gloves
Custom Modes
Fast/Responsive

Other nice features:

Image stabilization
RAW
HD video

I regularly capture great action at at less than 1/640. Why? Because I can TRACK my subject in the OVF. That's what the optical finder is all about: no LCD lag/blackout while shooting a moving subject. That's also particularly important if you are preset for a shot and want to click at just the right moment but still want to look through the camera instead of directly at the subject. That and wonderfully extended battery life in low temps and no problems seeing the subject due to sun glaring off the LCD. Optical finders are the shit even if they are dinky little optical tunnel finders. They are for tracking action and dealing with the sun, not for landscapes.

Better than 2fps is needed for any hope of making a sequence and for getting a good powder sequence.

The rest of the items on the list are pretty self explanatory for good image quality and usability.

Bolded cameras are the ones I have purchased.

Current High End Recommendations: These cameras have large modern sensors, optical finders, fast/quality lenses, full manual controls, HD video, and the ability to maintain 2fps or higher.

Canon G12 (infinite 2fps, 720p)
Fujifilm X10 (adjustable up to 10fps burst then infinite 2fps, 1080p)

The X10 is feature loaded with a huge unique CMOS sensor and an ultrafast f/2.0-2.8 4x zoom. The G12 has a very respectable smaller CCD sensor with a f/2.8-4.8 6x zoom. These are pricey choices, particularly the X10. However, there are some old cameras that are excellent choices available for cheap on ebay. Unfortunately, these older models are becoming scarce:

Old Cameras: These 5-6 year old models have large sensors, optical finders, fast/quality lenses, full manual controls, and the ability to maintain 2fps or higher.

Canon G7 (2fps)
Canon A610/A620 (2.4fps)
Olympus C-7070 Wide (2.4fps)

Some people want smaller cameras or need the 1080p, but can't afford the G12/X10. Well, there is a new dynamic in cameras that utilize fast BSI CMOS sensors that have reversed the low FPS high MP trend. They often have great zoom ranges, but the lenses aren't the fastest for action. Some lack full manual controls (or real apertures). However, the price and size savings require smaller, noisier sensors and slower lenses. Additionally, the trend of big LCDs and no optical finders continues. However, many options offer decent performance, great versatility, small size, and at a decent price. The handicaps of no viewfinder are compensated for with short 1 second bursts at 3-10fps. It is good for getting a moment right on the shot your preset, but tracking and sequencing is out.

Current Low End Recommendations: Decent lenses, fast/quality performance for their class, less than 1/2 lb, and capability to shoot 1080p and short high FPS bursts

Casio EX-ZR200 (30fps adjustable)
Fuji F600EXR (10fps adjustable)
Panasonic TS3 (3.7fps waterproof/shockproof)
Samsung TL350 (10fps)

Cheap Old Small Low End Recommendations: Small sensors, optical finders, smaller/slower lenses, and the ability to maintain 2fps or higher.

Canon SD900
Sony DSC-W150

From about Nov '06 to Sept '10, I haven't been able to recommend anything besides an A610 or a G7. It is nice to say something else. It's nice to see some wide lenses out there. It is nice to see some unique technology out there like BSI-CMOS and EXR backlit CMOS from Fujifilm which allows you to half the MP to double the light sensitivity or dynamic range. I anxiously await real world reviews of the ZR200. I hope to see a Canon G14 and Panasonic TS4 coming out in January.

I hope this was helpful. Discuss!

I'll add one thing about the Canon G11 (not G12 which I don't have) which is impressive - very long lasting battery life. Lasted a 5 day pretty cold ski traverse

The G12 is the updated G11. Almost nothing changed except adding burst increased from 1.1fps to 2.0fps, video from 480p to 720p, improved IS, and the S95/S100 front control ring. For a skier, those little changes make a HUGE difference for action shooting, video, and controllability.

I would add fast focus ability to the list. I've got a Canon G9, which does a lot of good things but it doesn't focus nearly fast enough to properly capture action shots.

Also, I would add the Olympus XZ1 to the list. It's one of the fastest P&S on the market (f1.8 wide open), it does 2 fps wide open and can go up to 15 FPS if you don't mind sacrificing resolution. It records 720 HD video. It lacks a viewfinder but you can add an EVF to it if you want.

I agree regarding fast focus, which I tried to cover in "fast/responsive." You want a camera that zooms fast, focuses fast, processes fast, etc. One nice thing about the X10 is that it has a mechanical/manual zoom for super faster zooming.

An EVF is no different than an LCD for action shooting purposes. Paying $200 for the addon EVF for the XZ1 is more than the price difference between the XZ1 and the X10. The XZ1 is outclassed by the Fuji X10. The X10 has a bigger sensor, an OVF, full resolution 7fps, more features, 1080p, and manual zoom, while being only slightly larger and the lens is only 1/3 stop different (but it has optical IS unlike the XZ1). To be clear, the XZ1 shoots 2fps just like the X10. The X10 shoots 7fps at 12MP or 10fps at 6MP. The XZ1 shoots 7fps at 5MP or 15fps at 2MP). The X10 arguably shoots 30fps at 2MP in 1080p.

The XZ1 is much more comparable to a Canon S100 and priced similarly to the S100 (and G12). The XZ1 does have a faster lens with optical IS, albeit with a smaller zoom range than the S100. The XZ1 is larger than the S100.

I think the XZ1 is a great camera, but I didn't put it on the ski action camera list because, for that price, you can get an optical finder.

Make the damned things waterproof.

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

Make the damned things waterproof.

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I've never killed a camera with snow. You can buy rain bags. You can buy waterproof/scuba cases. Or you can buy the Panasonic TS3 which is waterproof to 40ft.

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

Make the damned things waterproof.

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Could be wrong, but I believe skiingislife lost his G10 at Loveland mid-winter one year only to return a few months later in the summer to find it. Once he did, the camera turned on and was still fully-functioning.

hey summit - want to buy my G11 so I can buy a G12?

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Originally Posted by AlexC

I would add fast focus ability to the list. I've got a Canon G9, which does a lot of good things but it doesn't focus nearly fast enough to properly capture action shots...

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With a P&S you should be prefocusing as often as possible, since the huge DOF of the tiny sensors will give you a lot of leeway in terms of focus. (That huge DOF is also why a P&S can do a sequence of photos even though the camera doesn't refocus between shots.)

What prefocusing accomplishes is to greatly reduce the overall focus/shutter lag to the point where even a slow camera, say a G9, can be very effective for action shots. (Although its FPS certainly does not make it an ideal choice.)

Prefocusing was a standard technique for taking action shots back in the days before film cameras had autofocus, and it makes a hudge improvement in the responsiveness of any P&S.

Good work, Summit, you've put together a excellence resource for people looking for a ski camera.

My wife (I) has a G11 I bought her. I have had that thing out in mid rain storms, no problem. Pretty great PofS, I mean P&S for the price...especially when acquired through the loyalty program!

i've never had a digital camera that had a problem with water either. my second digital was a toshiba something. slow as fuck but took great pics back in the 4.0 Mp days. Dropped it in a stream once and it was fully submerged for about 5 seconds. Took the card and batteries out and let it dry a couple days. No problems. OTOH, if it was waterproof, i wouldn't have had to worry about it at all.

The X10 is a really, really cool camera. I was dead-set on buying one as an everyday camera until I grabbed a cheap GF2 deal last week instead.

Canon S95 should be high on this list.

Came across this yesterday after Summit brought the X10 to my attention: Fuji X10 photo thread

Being a “ritard" from childhood I always find myself doing stupid shit, so this year I saved and bought a G12 from Costco and took it out on the PCT this summer. Within a week on trail some sand got caught up in the lens and scratched the hell out it resulting in fucked up looking pics with sun streaks across them. So I bring it back to Costco for a FULL refund and then the stupidity begins, I decide that plugging a camera in the wall to charge it is for pussy’s and I buy a Cannon PowerShot A1100 IS that takes AA batteries (fucking genius I am!).

Well this fucking thing goes through 4 god damn batteries per outing, and fuck, last week at Mammoth it took 6 in one day! To boot, it was fucking $250, and I bought it sight unseen from some shit website with no return policy pretty much. I told you I was fucking retarded.

I will say though, when it has charged batteries in it, it takes great pics and is really compact for stealthy pic taking (like, titty & ass pics).

You're using rechargeable NiMH batteries, right? Because regular alkaline batteries are useless in digital cameras, always have been.

A good set of NiMHs should last three or four times as long as alkalines.

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Originally Posted by Eldo

You're using rechargeable NiMH batteries, right?

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No I am not and the funny thing is I saw them in Home Depot and was like “those things will never last as long as the regular batteries”. Dude the older I get the more of Bo-tard I become I swear but thanks for the heads up, I am out the door to get myself a rechargeable setup. TGR forum is paying off already...

Just to add that you can pick add-on OVFs on ebay which will work with any camera with a hotshoe. Olympus and Helios ones seem to go for reasonable prices.
Now these clearly aren't perfect but could be handy with an LX5 XZ1 or S95/S100 if you needed

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Originally Posted by Gregger

Canon S95 should be high on this list.

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^ Agree. No optical view finder, but I disagree with the OP on that one.

Also: new s100 has some serious speed: 2.3 fps continuous shooting (9.6 fps for 8 frames in High-Speed burst mode).

My personal opinion is that high burst rates are a really good way to get a whole bunch of crappy pictures, but YRMV.

Another nice feature of the s100 is a built-in ND filter which allows you to shoot at high (fast) apertures in bright light - a common ski photography need.

My list for a good ski P&S is different tho: 1. image quality is king 2. HD video 3. wide angle 4. Image stab. is a must for video, esp. not generally needed for outdoor bright light. 5. Small, durable. 6. Good battery (verdict is out on s100 on this one, it's a little short, but may be adequate.)

Thanks for all of the above. I'm looking at the Canon A1200, which has an optical viewfinder and decent zoom, but no IS, and I can't seem to find the fps numbers. Any feedback on this camera. It's cheap, which is nice. Haven't had a working camera in years, so obviously I'm not serious about it. Thanks.

A1200's continous drive is only 1FPS. For the right price, it could work, you just won't be able to catch much action in the moment. I would say scour craigslist for a deal on a older camera with better features.

http://www.dpreview.com/products/can...ts/canon_a1200

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Originally Posted by Sinecure

Make the damned things waterproof.

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http://www.amazon.com/Pentax-Adventu...3524255&sr=8-2

I have the optio 30w, been ok for white water use. The shutter has a lag which can hose the shot. The video function sucks donkeys. Not sure about the newer one in the link above. I can say mine has lasted a long time and brought back the memories most of the time.

Mission accomplished
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/gear/Le...erz-4140.shtml

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Originally Posted by Arno

Just to add that you can pick add-on OVFs on ebay which will work with any camera with a hotshoe. Olympus and Helios ones seem to go for reasonable prices.
Now these clearly aren't perfect but could be handy with an LX5 XZ1 or S95/S100 if you needed

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S95/100 don't have shoes. Don't know about the xz1. BTW, just got the 95, camera is ridiculous:)

Summit,

I currently own the Sony HX5 which would be similiar in burst settings as the W150. The only annoyance I have is that the processing speed after using the burst settings is very slow. IE. Once I shoot a burst, I cannot take another picture for quite a few seconds depending on the number of frames I have exposed. Would you mind commenting on the proccessing speed of both the X10 and the G12 in comparison?

you might want to look at the canon gx 1
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/01...Xpreviewupdate

though personally I need more tele

Really interested in the G12 and X10 - but not sure which way to go.

The price on the G12 is way better, but the video (stats) on the X10 are far superior....

Is anyone on here having the orb problem with these Fuji X10s? I was about to pull the trigger when I read about that. Dont know what to get now. Either an X10 or a G12 I guess. If only the X100 had a zoom lens...

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Originally Posted by Tupp-

Really interested in the G12 and X10 - but not sure which way to go.

The price on the G12 is way better, but the video (stats) on the X10 are far superior....

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I've had the G12 for a year now and it's great for stills, but only fair for videos. It's only 720p, so if you want to shoot super clear HD vids, look elsewhere. (Battery life is amazing, though.)

For waterproof and indestructable, I use an Olympus 8010, but there is a big lag in shutter speed... not great for ski action, but bomb-proof.

Love my Canon G12. The battery life is as advertised tremendous. It's not the smallest, but the picture quality is great and the controls are well placed and easy to use. I always felt that the cameras that were really small were a bit awkward to shoot with, almost like shooting with a toy. Not so with the G12, solid feel and heft. Owned it for a year now, very happy with it....