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McCain:
So Barack's plans are what? Change what? Change it how? I'd like some explanations.
It's politics. You won't really know until he takes office.Quote:
Originally Posted by SunCuntry
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunCuntry
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
Don't forget hope I think there is hope mixed in with that change.Quote:
Originally Posted by SunCuntry
maybe you're a nice guy, or gal, or whatever so I'll try to be nice: every candidate for major office always has a "website" that spells out their "platform".Quote:
Originally Posted by SunCuntry
in this case it's the 1st link if you "google" this candidate's name. on the main page of the website, the path you follow is titled "issues".
happy reading corky!
edit: italics and quotes
Yeah that's what it all comes down to :rolleyes:
I don't have an internet connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiMan
I brought this up a while ago and no Obama supporter, or supporter of anyone else for that matter, could answer that question.Quote:
Originally Posted by SunCuntry
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108096
:confused::confused::confused:
Or maybe we just refuse to address Fox News talking points. Do you have a specific question about a specific issue, or are you just going to keep repeating the lie that he has no experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
You obviously don't have to agree with him on any or all issues, but at least make a specific argument, instead of pretending there is nothing to his politics.
See the link above....and then come back and let's have a meaningful discussion.
^^^
Is this your first election that you can participate in too? I like checking msg boards to get info, as biased as it can be, on candidates and I really like Obama as a person, but all I see is anger like this when someone questions him. WTF?
Aside from his own website, what can you tell me about him. Like I said, I really like him.
Easy junior.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
If you weren't so quick to judge me as a fox news watcher, and I'm assuming you'd drop your favorite buzzword neocon, you'd see I had an honest question about what he defines his brand of "Change" to be. No where in there did I even come close to mentioning inexperience.
The problem with people like you is that if anyone questions your guy, you instantly lump them in a large, all-encompassing group of people that you perceive hate you and your guy. Breathe, then post.
Tone down the vitriol and maybe then someone can have a "meaningful discussion" with you.
sorry, kid.. that's not anger. it's debate. i don't know how you perceive the post before you to express anger. disagreement/debate yes. anger no.Quote:
Originally Posted by newschoolerz
I like him too. I think he's seem to be a real god sincere guy, with a lovely wife and two great kids (which you don't see much with politicians), but being a good guy, great husband, and awesome father does not make for a great president. The fact is he has stayed away from the specifics on everything and has kept everything vague. He has no plan. He has no specifics. Hope is not a plan. And neither is change. Every single election on both sides has their Obama. They scream "change change change" "hope hope hope" "Washington is bad!" and then win or lose after the election is over they don't know what the hell it was that they wanted to change. He seems to think that if you just show up at the Oval Office with good intentions then everything will just automatically just change for you and things will all start getter better. Until he goes on a limb and says WHAT he is going to change and more importantly HOW he is going to change it then he is not a serious candidate imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by newschoolerz
This will be my third presidential election.Quote:
Originally Posted by newschoolerz
A few things I like about Obama:
He is the real deal when he talks about change. He passed up incredible job opportunities to be a poorly paid community organizer right out of college, and I think he truly believes in energizing the grassroots to get out there and actually do something.
He was a Constitutional law professor at U of Chicago, an excellent school. He understands the Constitution and I believe he will repair much of the damage that the current administration has done to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution.
He was against the Iraq war from the beginning. Sure, many will argue that he had nothing to lose since he was a state senator at the time, but at least he didn't buckle to political expediency like Clinton did. And yes, he has voted to continue funding, but I believe he is the best person to get us out of that fucking mess.
He is honest. I trust him...as many others do, apparantly. He has been consistent on the issues.
He is an incredible public speaker that rallies people to his side. He is very likeable, and I think having a black man with a strange name will do wonders to heal some our racial issues both here and abroad. I think we need to change the image of the US abroad and I believe he can do this better than any of the other candidates.
Let's face it, the president does not make policy on his own. He must work with others, and his job is partly to be a cheerleader, and to make people feel good about themselves and their country. In this, Obama has no equal.
Are there things I don't like? Sure, a couple. He is slightly more hawkish than I would prefer, but this is probably a good thing for the general election. He fucked up by having the gay baiter Donny McClurkin at a rally, but he is solid on LGBT issues. His talk of compromise is off-putting to some hard line democrats, but overall, I think bringing people to the table is a net positive.
See NS, the fact that you're just an immature kid isn't being hidden from anyone. Everyone can tell just based on your stupid little "your mom" comebacks. So before we emotionally scar you for life go back to NS where you are safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Of A Flat Planet
Obama:
http://www.ontheissues.org/images/s080_020.gif
McCain:
http://www.ontheissues.org/images/s020_070.gif
IOW they both suck since I'm:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=7&e=6
You are right, I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
Let's talk about the issues...see my post just above.
As far as the "change" issue, the most obvious is that he is trying to get away from demonizing the other side, whether the other side is the Clintons or the Republicans. The politics that declares the other side is all bad is bullshit and most of us are sick of it. That is it on the most basic level...however, there is no doubt that Obama is very much a progressive liberal and will stick to those guns. His strength is selling progressivism to non-progressives, and making them happy to support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourSupremeExcellency
scare me? And how, dress up like this?
http://www.crazycharlie.tv/wp-conten...7/09/ghost.JPG
For those who say Obama has no substance:
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...m/breakingnews
Actually, he was a part-time senior lecturer. It's a fine position to have, but I don't like it when people or campaigns inflate someone's resume.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
People repeat this all the time, but really no can know how he would have voted. His record of voting for every Iraq funding measure has to make you wonder how committed he really has been to the get out of Iraq cause.Quote:
He was against the Iraq war from the beginning. Sure, many will argue that he had nothing to lose since he was a state senator at the time, but at least he didn't buckle to political expediency like Clinton did. And yes, he has voted to continue funding, but I believe he is the best person to get us out of that fucking mess.
He also has talked about "redeploying" troops from Iraq. Where would these go? Iran?
I would love to trust him, too, but the Rezko stuff and the shadiness surrounding his house deal bother me. I would like to see him clear that up. Also, he has a history of voting "Present" as a state senator and not voting at all on many issues. I can only assume that he tries to avoid being on the record so that he can modify his stump speech to suit the audience he's addressing. These things do not inspire trust for me.Quote:
He is honest. I trust him...as many others do, apparantly. He has been consistent on the issues.
Clearly, many people agree with you on this one because so many people are running around chanting "Yes, We Can!", "Hope", and "Change". His speaking and empty phrases leave me cold. I would like to hear something more substantial from him.Quote:
He is an incredible public speaker that rallies people to his side. He is very likeable, and I think having a black man with a strange name will do wonders to heal some our racial issues both here and abroad. I think we need to change the image of the US abroad and I believe he can do this better than any of the other candidates.
He has yet to disavow a relationship with McClurkin. It makes me wonder how committed he really is to civil rights for LGBT folks.Quote:
He fucked up by having the gay baiter Donny McClurkin at a rally, but he is solid on LGBT issues.
He's been a member of the Trinity United Church for years. This church gives me the creeps.
I really want to like your candidate, but so far "Yes, We Can!", "Hope", and "Change" haven't been enough for me.
This is a funny talking point. What do you think his students called him, Professor Obama or Part Time Senior Lecturer Obama? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudpeak
The Rezko thing...if that could stick, the Clintons would be firing it out of a cannon.
You "want" to like him, huh? :cool:
All churches (except maybe unitarians and quakers) give me the creeps. But, it seems we still have a Christian litmus test for presidential candidates.Quote:
e's been a member of the Trinity United Church for years. This church gives me the creeps.
Actually, there were some good reasons, at least some of the time. "Organizations like Planned Parenthood and NARAL have made it clear to any reporter who asks that Obama's present votes were part of a legislative strategy that they designed specifically to protect abortion rights."Quote:
Also, he has a history of voting "Present" as a state senator and not voting at all on many issues.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karen-...e_b_84186.html
clooudpeak, you are entitled to any opinion you want, but I have to say this: your anti-Obama posts come off sounding like little more than concern trolls.
This is a good point. A friend of mine said that if McCain didn't get the nod on the republican side he would vote for Obama in the general. He said this while wearing a "I'm STILL glad I voted for Bush AGAIN" T-shirt. If Obama can reach out to that guy...Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
The specific policy proposal question is an interesting one because it only gets thrown at Obama. Yet the news media does an equally crappy job informing us as to the specifics of Hillary, McCain, or Huckabee's policy choices. I haven't met any Hillary supporters who can, at the drop of a hat, provide a thorough explanation of her policy beliefs. So why isn't she considered to lack substance? Because, being Hillary Clinton, it's just assumed that she's a smart person. Hillary is the nerdy girl with glasses and Obama is a charming and effective speaker. It's a good narrative, and the media loves to run with it.
I've talked to lots of supporters of various sides and I rarely hear anything specific from anyone. Why does (did) my roomate support Thompson?
"Because he has strong conservative positions, and seems to say what he believes rather than what people want to hear"
- Wow, that was specific.
Why does my other roomate support Ron Paul?
"Because he believes in liberty."
- Also, very specific.
I hear from Hillary supporters that she "knows how to deal with the republican machine." Ok, then. Please provide instances of her "dealing with the republican machine." As far as I can tell her efforts have resulted in:
- Convincing a significant portion of the country that she IS the devil incarnate and feeds off of human blood nightly.
- Creating the punchline: "vast right-wing conspiracy."
- Voting for Iraq and for saber-rattling at Iran so as not to appear insufficiently warmongering.
Whatever though, this is so much griping. Why do I support Obama? Here are two reasons, both cribbed from better writers than I.
On Working out Disagreements
- Obama got a video-taping interrogation bill passed back in the day. Most thought it was doomed. It passed 35-0 in the state senate. One commentator observes:
""It was fought tooth and nail ... The cops and prosecutors were adamantly against it for some time including the Democratic Cook County Prosecutor. I swore reform was dead after the commutations, Obama pulled it off. It was an incredible sight. The end result was truly amazing. The police groups hated the idea and they hated racial profiling legislation — he passed both without angering them, but by working with them, listening, and showing good faith. I never thought it would pass with Democratic State's Attorneys opposing it, strongly even — but he pulled everyone along and did it pretty quickly.""
On Open Government - Another dude sez:
"Obama has shown a real commitment to open government. When putting together tech policy (to take an example close to home for xkcd) others might have gone to industry lobbyists. Obama went to Lawrence Lessig, founder of Creative Commons (under which xkcd is published) and longtime white knight in the struggle with a broken system over internet and copyright policy. Lessig was impressed by Obama’s commitment to open systems — for example, his support of machine-readable government information standards that allow citizens’ groups to monitor what our government is up to. Right now, the only group that can effectively police the government is the government itself, and as a result, it’s corrupt to the core. Through these excellent and long-overdue measures, Obama is working to fight this corruption."
Weak sauce, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudpeak
I'm in law school. If they're in front of the class then you know two things:
1) They are mother-fucking smart. Seriously.
2) You call them professor (this applies to tenured, non-tenured, clinical, lawyering-program, associate, adjunct, or whatever -faculty).
None of the issues I presented are opinion. They're facts. I'm an undecided voter. Way to win me over. :nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
So, please give me some concrete reasons to support and vote for your candidate. Si, se puede doesn't do it.
Actually, I believe I already posted a fairly long post with my reasons for supporting Obama, and also a post rebutting a few of your arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudpeak
I'm not really sure what you are looking for? :confused:
You think we actually read what OTHERS post??? Dude we don't read anyone elses opinions, we only post our own. I thought you knew that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
For what its worth I think its awesome that there is finally a word with negative connotations that people can use to try to label right wingers into a corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by BmillsSkier
Even better is watching people try to distance themselves from it. This is the second dude in the same number of days who we come to find out isn't a neocon!
Nobody wants to be a liberal or a neocon it seems ;) God bless America!
Gore/Myfootupyourpollutingass or at least Gore/Witherspoon. Geez, when are you fuckers going to get the point?!?!
I am the only option, THAT FUCKERS IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW!
Man, I need to sit down for a while... WITHERSPOON! you fuck, get in here and carry your weight asshole!
I watched it and I was impressed. I may be a Bezerkely Librodouche or whatever but I have not been a strong Clinton or Obama supporter ... that video helps a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arty50
In it, Obama comes off as: motivated and not lazy, intelligent, relaxed, and seems to make an earnest attempt to try to understand the root of problems in our country and figure out how to fix them. Even if he only accomplishes 3% of what he wants to, he comes off as someone who will at least try, and I expect that an Obama administration would be much more proactive than our reactive Bush administration.
how exactly is that a funny talking point? he wasn't a professor, I don't give a shit what his students called him. He also doesn't deny it when someone says that he was a professor.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
Clinton's can't cast stones because they live in a glass house.
Mehmet Celebi
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/20...-producer.html
Yawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_gyptian
"A Sun-Times review of student evaluations from Obama's 10 years of teaching part-time at the University of Chicago Law School shows that students almost always rated Obama as one of their top instructors -- except for one quarter in 1997.
"Those are tremendous ratings, especially for someone who had a day job," Professor Cass Sunstein said. "We wanted him to join the faculty full-time at various different junctures. That's not a trivial fact. . . . If we want to hire someone, the faculty has to think they're tremendous. But he liked political life."
......
Some Obama critics say because he had the title of "senior lecturer" he should not call himself "professor." U. of C. professors said Obama -- who practiced civil rights law for a time and stopped teaching in 2003 -- could have joined their ranks whenever he wanted.
from http://www.suntimes.com/news/politic...prof18.article
So, offered a full time tenured position at one of the top law schools in the country, said no, but still taught part time....I guess technically he WAS NOT a "Professor", but he was a professor, and that's what everyone called him.
Weak, weak talking point.
My friend from high school had Obama as a prof at U of C and raved about him.
She also is working on his campaign.
My friend from high school had Obama as a prof at U of C and raved about him.
She also is working on his campaign.
Just because you want it to be. No one said he was a poor instructor. No one said that he was not worthy of appointment a Professor. What was stated was that he was never a Professor. And that representing him as one is misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
In the world of academia, the distinction between a Lecturer vs a Professor is huge. About as big as the distinction between an entry level Agent and a Broker in your real estate business. Someone can be a great Agent. Maybe know as much as a Broker - but a broker they are not. And should not represent themselves as such - or allow themselves to be represented as such.
As a guy pitching integrity, change, transparency, etc - I'd expect Obama to be crystal clear on this sort of thing. And I'd expect him to demand the same from his supporters.
Now in the grand scheme of things, this is arguably a somewhat minor point. But added to his initial ducking and dodging on the Rezko thing (which was the equivalent of handing Obama a satchel with a half million bucks in it) and his pattern of voting "present" on certain rather key issues - well that leaves me uncomfortable.
I'm not fan of any of the current candidates. So while you might believe I've "made up my mind" - it is just the opposite. The only thing I've done is make up my mind to be open to the facts despite my hunger for what I once thought Obama was. Seriously, if any of GWBs cronies had pulled the Rezko thing - everyone would be all over them (deservedly IMO) - so why would you give Obama a break? And while you are at it, check out his team of advisors and what their views have been on key issues...
This may end up being the first presidential election in over 3 decades that I choose to sit out...:frown:
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift
Let's just ignore the facts, though. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
atleast he's not tied to any special interest groups.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by RootSkier
what else does he do to help interest groups?
What would you be saying about McCain if the NRA publicly stated he voted "present" as part of their strategy to allow more lenient concealed and carry laws?
I would say he's a politician. :confused:
The ins and outs of creating legislation is complicated...I generally won't judge ANY candidate on a single specific vote. In your scenario with McCain...big deal. If he voted for a specific gun control measure because his constituents felt it would somehow help advance their political goals, I would not cry foul.
edit: my favorite part of this thread is the couple repeating the same weak points. :D
It's a weak point to question a politician's non-votes when they are part of not one but two special interest group's strategy to legislate their goals?
Well, we could debate that ad nauseum, but spindrift and cloudpeak were inferring that he was voting 'present' to avoid staking out a position, which in this case at least, is patently false.
Honestly, mr gyptian, politicians do shit like this all the time, it's just part of the game. And yes, I DO think it's a weak point when all the info is out there in the open for anyone who is curious.
I have no problem with Obama coordinating with NARAL and Planned Parenthood, just like I have no problem with McCain coordinating with the NRA, or whatever. I certainly have no problem with my senators collaborating with something like the Nature Conservancy. As long as they are open about it, it's up to their own constituents to decide if it's OK or not. Obviously, Obama felt he was working for his Chicago constituents in trying to advance pro choice legislation, or at least limit anti-choice legislation. BFD, it's the whole point of the game.