If you have it do you like it? Would you rather pay for it yourself or the government take it out of your pay? What are the pros and cons?
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If you have it do you like it? Would you rather pay for it yourself or the government take it out of your pay? What are the pros and cons?
I like it and have i.
But I also have an insurance (which isn't all that expensive, since we do have universal health care) that will get me to really good doctors if/when I break myself (like my knee last Feb).
And yes, it comes from my paycheck as high taxes (but I still manage to live).
I have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckerman
Basicaly, I like it.
I won't get into the specifics of the french system, but, technicaly, it's not financed by real taxes (but by a part of one's salary and by employers) and not run by the governement (but by specific governing bodies administred by unions and representaives of the employers).
It's not a socialized system in the sense that there are both a public sector (hospital mainly) and a huge private sector (private hospital, individual practicioners...) and that one have the choice of his doctor.
The Social Security will refund your expenses according to its tables (most of the times you actualy won't have to pay in the first place. The doc / hospital will charge the SS directly).
Some doctors will charge according to the table, some will charge higher fees. Some doctors will have a part of their activity in a public hospital (thus virtualy for free for their patient) and another one in a private practice (sometimes inside the hospital) at a higher cost.
Many french have a complemental private health insurance that covers what the Social Security won't pay for : Consultation fees of some practitioners, single room in hospital, better quality prosthesis (denture, glasses...poorly covered by the Social Security)...
The system is totaly free for the lower incomes.
Pro :
Close to real universal health care.
Relatively cheap.
Good quality
Freedom to choose your doctor.
Cons :
It's bankrupt...
(I believe it could be more balanced without major alterations, but that would be a very long story...)
PLEASE remember this when this subject rears it's ugly head in the coming election. Not only will the cost be overwhelming, it will be necessary to carry supplemental insurance to insure quality health care.Quote:
Originally Posted by philippeR
This country is already bankrupt as a result of entitlements. It will not be able to meet its obligations to Social Security and Medicare in the near future and the citizens of this country are already paying an outrageous percentage of their income in taxes.
The United States Government has proven conclusively that it is completely unable to successfully manage the most basic of programs without waste and fraud and capitulation to special interests.
Think before you vote. You and your loved ones health and well being hangs in the balance.
I'm not a big fan of the private sector health insurance plan either. Something about the middle man and their profit motives over the concerns for those they claim to insure just doesn't seem the most efficient way to do health care. However, having a federally run program akin to FEMA and Huricane Katrina is a scarey thought too.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
Hmm, I should have add a winkie next to "bankrupt"... I should have known better...
It's not really bankrupt. But it's in deficit.
No we can afford it easily and it would probably be cheaper than than the profit driven system we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
No but it will be available if you feel the need.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
I had it and miss it. I hate having to consider healthcare as a business. I'm fairly certain Doctors don't like to either.
:rolleyes2Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
That is the dilemma. For Profit health care should produce a better quality of care but the system is out of whack. When I was a kid, a doctor's standard of living was superior to the average working guy but not say 10-20 times better.
A family friend was a cardiologist. He owned a nicer house than us and flew his own small Piper aircraft. Their families vacation trips were nicer and so forth.
When my mom was in Fox Chase Cancer Center, I refereed to Sundays as "car show day"
Aston Martins, Ferrari's, Bentleys and super ,super high dollar limited production sport cars all appeared in the doctors parking lot.
Drug companies are raping everyone. Chain pharmacies are screwing everyone.
A balance needs to be found that rewards those who enter the field but limits price gouging and profiteering
deficit is bankrupt. The only way out is to cut services or raise rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by philippeR
private health insurance is, of course, immune to fraudQuote:
Originally Posted by mrw
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695234209,00.htmlQuote:
UnitedHealth Group Inc.'s former chief executive officer William W. McGuire will keep more than $800 million in stock options after repaying over $600 million because of a backdating scandal
for someone advising people to think, you should think about the difference between bankrupt and deficit.
I think that what needs to be understood is that government sponsored insurance or care shouldnt entitle all to the very best we have to offer for care. Foodstamps dont buy a meal at a 5 star restaurant and govt mandates on auto safety dont get us all BMWs. There are drugs and treatments that are adequate not state of the art. Also do you want to pay for disease treatment that was self induced? Obesity liver failure lung cancer......come on. We that are here are pretty obcessed with alpine sports but we dont run our lives into the ground in pursuit of happiness. We all make choices some not so good. All national care programs have limits. In Canada and the Uk you have to wait for your ration of care and if you DIE while waiting oh well. Health care is the only commodity that is paid for after the service is rendered. There is alot of elective stuff being done that will go away if it is nationalized. Be careful what you wish for.
Well, I know it is almost impossible for a federally funded program to be "bankrupt" for as long as they have the authority to dip into the well of tax dollars, bankruptcy of the program will unfortunately never occur.The deficits will continue to mount and the services provided will diminish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Conway
If this country is hell bent on universal health care, first let's make the government overhaul Medicare/Medicade and make it function without deficits. If it is able to demonstrate that it is capable of that, I would be willing to examine expanding its scope further into the private sector.
The reality is, that is not going to happen because the costs far outweigh the allocated funding and the "check" will never come due because politicians don't want to lose their jobs.
Quite a few people in the 18-30 year age group choose to go without coverage because characteristically, they are at low risk of serious illness.
The first step to fixing the health care crisis in this country is to force these folks into the system to spread the risk and lower payouts in ratio to the payer pool.
I've had experience with the systems in the USA, Canada, France, and the UK.
Canada's and France's are excellent. Don't know about France, but Canadian wait times for most things are pretty much the same as the US (don't let the HMO lobbyists and their late-night comedians fool you).
There are problems in both systems, mainly funding strain - and from US corporations which want to turn every country into the US.
The UK system I can't really comment on since I was there in the late 80's and I'm sure things have changed. At that time though, I'd rank it quite below France and Canada.
The US system has great equipment and good doctors but the priority is not anyone's health but maximizing profits. Add the millions without coverage, and poor public facilities, and you have a nightmare.
People, lots of people, die and/or suffer simply because they don't have enough money, while health Co., CEO's make millions - hundreds of millions.
I have no idea how to fix that system but I'm confident that it won't change unless the corporations want it to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhski
That's so narrow-minded. To someone who didn't ski, paying for the medical care of people who get into accidents on the hill would be just as ridiculous to them as the thought of paying for someone else's obesity problem (which, by the way, isn't necessarily due to "bad choices") is to you.
I have it.
Pros, - I have it if I need it. It pays ambulance costs which includes medivac, heivac...
- It's not too expensive.
Cons - I never use it. Wait, that's not a bad thing.
- It is slow as hell because there is a lack of funding for hospitals,nurses, doctors equipment.... resulting in huge wait times for procedures.
i think its a good idea, but it would never work in America
we are a country that fucked up universal schooling, so i don't see universal heath care working out too well
Is this just personal experience or would you say this is more wide-spread in Canada(or perhaps just in more rural areas?) I ask because in these threads I feel like I always hear some people saying this and other people saying it's bs cooked up by private ins. companies trying to make americans stick with what we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaver
There's a constant push (from the health corporations) to make Americans fear "Canadian-style care", "universal health care", "gay Hollywood satanic freedom-hating care", whatever you want to call it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo
The prescription drug issue was impossible to cloud though. People know they need Drug X, and if it Drug X is cheaper across the street, why not buy it there. So, Americans started buying their drugs from Canadistan...is that still going on or has the pharma industry figured out a way to get the government to prevent that kind of competition?
Outrageous? We pay lower taxes and work harder for less compensation/benefits and any other western country (almost, I think, yeah, and Japan).Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
A simple copay system could easily be figured out. Because it's not for profit it will be cheaper than HMO's and you will be able to see any doctor.
I like my government slow and bureaucratic, it supposed to keep anyone from getting too much power. Think TWO houses of law makers.
In my experience, if you get seriously ill in Canada you usually get taken care of pretty quickly. If, however, you need elective surgery (hip replacement, stuff like that) be prepared to rot on a waiting list for what can be a very long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo
Way too complicated a topic to deal with in a short post (or even a long one), but there are IMO pros and cons to both systems. The US health system is used to scare children at night up here, but our own system is not without its issues. You're never going to be refused insurance here because you're a "bad risk" but on the other hand a guy I know waited almost two years for elective surgery.
No such UK or Canada style waiting lists en France.Quote:
Originally Posted by pheenster
Obviously emergencies are taken care off faster, but I've not heard strories of ridiculously long wait.
And, yes, social security issues iz complicated matter...
I think health is a bad idea generally. Maximization requires minimization of equal inputs of equilateral proportions. When these are equidistant from quasi-unanimous entities the emergent forces are disingenuous.
Do you see that changing any time soon? I mean, almost 30% of your populaton is not working, or hardly working. It is a tough call for that other 70% to pick up the slack for the immigrants that come in daily.Quote:
Originally Posted by philippeR
I know plenty of people in France that are fed up with the system. If you are perceived to be able to pay, you pay. If not, it is free. The "taxes" are outrageous. I am not sure how they will fund it further, without making some huge changes. I think it will cost that 70% more, while the poor immigrants ride for free.
I don't know where you found the 70/30 % figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by warthog
The ride is indeed free for the poors, immigrants or not (It makes sense, if you ask me, to have those able to pay, to pay...). Now, I'd challenge the assumption that the poor do not pay taxes. They do, each time they buy something. And the rich immingrants pay the same taxes as rich french nationals...
I'm not sure our taxes are so outragous though. I believe our income taxes are on par, maybe lower, on average, than in the US. And many things are free, or way cheaper, than on the states. Like healthcare or education.
You may favor a different philosophy, less socialized, but I'm unconvinced that our system is ultimately more expensive than yours when you're in my position (middle aged, father of 2).
I agree the system needs revamping. Mostly by charging more to the higher incomes (that would be me :eek:)... Today, rates are the same to everyone. And by streamlining the procedures, administration of the system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
Add up payroll taxes, real estate taxes, county taxes, state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, fuel taxes, telecommunication taxes, capital gain taxes, estate taxes and then tell me you are under taxed.
Oh, while you are at it, take corporate taxes and add them in too because you really don't think they aren't passed on directly to the consumer do you?
Then lets take the dollar figure needed to collect and distribute those taxes to the various government entities and add that in because those costs are also passed along down the line.
Are you still under taxed? Don't forget the famous Social Security Tax.
What exactly are you recieving for all of those taxes?
What ever it is, don't you think you could provide for yourself at a much lower cost if all of that money was in your pocket?
This government does not trust you with the money you earn. Like a stern parent, they rip it from your pocket and put it to use as they see fit.
yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
A huge war-machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
Just wow. Do you even realize what you propose? Yep, it seems like you suggest a Universal health care, no? Only by doing it your way, you get to keep the great concept of allowing private health care companies the benefit of denying patients care, due to bullshit reasons, while reaping the rewards. And you are talking about universal health care as a corrupt system? Allowing companies to earn money by not giving care to patients must be the worst form of corruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
Coming from a country where UHC is a fact and taken for granted, i believe the idea of the opposite - whatever you may call it - is utterly retarded. The notion that some people cannot afford heath care is madness in my eyes and every person has the right to be treated if injured or ill.
With this in mind, it is thus much better with a health care system that is not built on the concept that refusing care to patients means higher profits. It DOES however allow privatised hospitals. I am not here to write an essay though and i will leave it at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFsup
If health care is a right, when did it become a right?
mrw - can you share with us clear statistical proof of the superiority of the US for profit health care system over various national, single payer, socialized systems around the world.
Every study I have seen indicates the the States pays more per head for less coverage, both total and individual but has significantly lower results when the state of the nation's health is measured with widely accepted metrics.
It does sound that you have significant first hand experience of using other systems or maybe perhaps working within them. Again details please.
Otherwise we may start to suspect that your just spouting tired old fallacies.
The simple answer? although providing, rather than selling, care to the sick is something that goes back through all of human history.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
How does Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights tickle you?
Even an imbecile like Ronald Regan kind off liked it - "For people of good will around the world, that document is more than just words: It's a global testament of humanity, a standard by which any humble person on Earth can stand in judgment of any government on Earth."
The fact that it's not specifically your countries document is also the whole point, mostly.
Wait until you see what hapens to our tax rates when Hillary or Obama get into office. Hold onto your wallets folks!Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
This thread pukes ignorance. The American Health Care system provides the highest quality of care in the world and we pay for that.
The largest provider of health coverage behind CMS (medicare) is BCBS (directly and TPA), which is a non-profit organization, yet it is also the most expensive.
Privatized health care is a big part of the solution, not the problem. First think of the facilities. How many for profit/private hospitals serve the general public? None. Almost all hospitals are non-profit and public, exluding some single specialty/surgical hosipitals/surgery centers. Are you aware that the largest expense for our hospitals is administrative paper work! One of the reasons why our health care coverage is so expensive is that our public nonprofit hospitals hemorrage money b/c of poor management and primitive operational systems from a fiscal business standpoint. A solution to this is to localize and privatize healthcare. Allow the physicians to own and control the facilities of which health care is provided. Have them hire savy managers who have the knowledge to streamline an efficient mangement system from a business, patient flow and quality of care perspective. If the managers don't perform to the physicians expectations, the docs can fire them. Presently it is vice versa. Are you also aware that the 4th most common cause of death in our country is staff infection mainly do to unsterile ORs in our public non-profit facilities. In addition to the fatalities caused by infection, this also increases the cost of care on a per patient basis and it is underreported. If you go to a public non-profit hospital for an outpatient procedure you risk infection. In the privately/physician owned health care facility industry there 0% staff infection.
The insurance companies, whether private, commercial, medicare, HMO, self pay, etc... are not the reason why our health care system is so expensive.
In addition to the astronomical administrative cost, our system is strained from malpractice claims, indigents and illegal immigrant, economical decredentialing, and the overly bad habits of the American People.
It is completely ignorant if we think a simple "co-pay system" can solve these problems.
I feel that the following tweeks to our system will be a good start to lowering the cost of our health insurance: Tort Reform, physician owned for profit facilities, policy and procedure changes that focus on sterile environments (such as hand sanitizer stations placed in every door of a hospital), efficient managers who's jobs rely on performance, preventative medicine and educating the public on how to live a healthier lifestyle.
We need to take our health system away from the politicians, lobbyist, administrators and insurance companies, and return it to the physicians and patients, where it belongs.
This means privatized health care in a competitive environment of which reports every incident with full disclosure.
Again, America's healthcare is of the greatest quality. We can get an MRI in 30 minutes. Our technology and access to it is the best. We demand this! And at any cost we will make sure our loved ones and ourselves will have the best care available.
Nationalizing our health care system would be one of the single greatest mistakes we can make. This is a fact, Look at what Mitt Romney did to Mass. He will be the first to admit it, and I don't think he would make the same mistake twice. Also, socialized heathcare is simply unamerican and unconstitutional. Plus as an earlier poster stated, how can we trust a government that performed so poorly during national and international crisis, with our health. That scares the hell out of me.
My two cents.
:nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
megadittos mrw!!
About the same time a few of those 18-30 year olds that mrw mentioned needed an emergency appendectomy which caused my health insurance premiums to go up.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeatPuppet
Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
mrw has 30 years in the insurance industry. I am not by any means, a fan of the insurance/medical industry as it now exists however I am not a believer in anything government has to offer. It fails at all levels.
There is clear statistical proof to support any thing you care to dream up if you care to spend a few months digging for it. have fun and let me know how you make out. Spend a few weeks dealing with the associated crap necessary to flow paper work through a government bureaucracy and you will have a clear understanding of why National Health care is an oxymoron. I left that end of the business in an effort to maintain my sanity.
Tired old fallacies? I guess you are willing to risk your own health and that of your loved ones by giving all control of your medical needs to a government agency. Best of luck with that. Have you checked the teeth of the average Brit?
I have spent the last 5 years of my life freeing myself of any government entanglement. I moved to a state with no real estate tax and no sales tax. There are few if any entitlements provided and we pay for our own street lights, and trash pick up. Amazingly, all of that costs thousands less than i was paying for the same in another state. The same will be true of National Health care. Cheaper and better from the private sector.
And there it is. Listen to Republicans and you find out that illegal immigration is at the root of all the problems in the US if not the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrrr
Or right around the same time someone with a raging case of TB is seated next to Meatpuppet on a little cross country jet ride.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grange
Simple solution. We should waterboard people without health insurance or access to a free clinic to find out why. Drown em till they spill it.
Don't you feel that's just a little bit hysterical?Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
All the anti-government types should stay away from our government. I happen to like driving on roads payed for with taxes that I seamlessly pay at the pump. It would be like if my atheist ass started telling religious folk how to run their churches. I'd downsize and privatize that shit in an instant, but I don't. Some people like church, and some people like government services (ie roads).
Wow, just like the liberal media to take a point out of context and to spin it into political bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grange
Is that all you got? The liberal media?? That tired old line ceased to be true in the 80's. Get with the times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrrr
seamlessly?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by uglymoney
Your fuel taxes are now going into the general fund forcing road repairs to compete with a zillion bullshit programs for funding. That funding that comes from the Feds to the State comes with strings attached. How else did you think we ended up having a 55 mph speed limit shoved down our throats?
States have to show compliance for speeding tickets and a host of regulations.
The same applies to funding from the department of education.Loaded with curriculum requirements to properly brainwash future voters.