Is it World War III

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Originally Posted by cj001f

Keep pointing the finger dex - the more you point the sooner a solution will come, really.

No control is farcical - the Palestinian Authority is not a sovereign nation - unless sovereign nations don't have control over their own borders? In their attacks and actions the past 5 years Israel has shown a systematic desire to dismantle the Palestinian economy - cutting off guest workers - now destroying infrastructure. Show me a nation with high unemployment that doesn't have a problem with crime, violence and extremism Dexter. I double dare you.

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What are you talking about? I didn't point a finger, simply stated a fact. The PA is not under Israeli control. What you cited doesn't prove that Israel controls the PA--if Israel controlled the PA there wouldn't have been the terrorism that there has been, to say nothing of Qassam manufacture and arming of militants/Hamas. To say that Israel should allow unfettered travel for Palestinians, regardless of the cost in civilian lives, is ludicrous.
If the PA doesn't want its infrastructure destroyed it should control its own. Since it has no interest in doing so it suffers the consequences (see the U.S. reaction against the Taliban for more on that sequence of events).

There are plenty of countries with high unemployment that don't repeatedly attack their neighbors in suicide terrorist attacks that target civilians. Take your pick of several dozen.
In fact, show me one that behaves as the Palestinians have, I double dare you.

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

Dex, I generally agree with you on most everything, so I'm just going to say to be careful with your logic here. You're getting awfully close to what the Current US administration says regarding justice in Guantanamo vs. the rest of the Arab world. I don't think that using repressive regimes as a standard bearer is where we want to go here......

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I'm not trying to say that Israel's policies toward Palestinians are right because of what the Arabs do, just presenting a rarely discussed counterpoint. The rights of Arabs are only at issue when Israel is involved, otherwise anything goes. Same old story, though.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Fixed it for you. But the old Zionism is Racism thing is a tired old saw employed by anti-Israel types, and holds no water. Not that I support Biblical claims to land, but you gotta deal with the 'facts on the ground'.



That is a stated Palestinian policy (the 'right' of 'return'). How about a right of return for the 1,000,000 Jews evicted from Arab countries?? Ha, ha.

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I wouldn't argue with your edits. For any human in the 21st century to be arguing some kind of special entitlement because of their race or worse their religon is a disgrace to our species.

But the facts on the ground are that Israel is conducting an atrocity out of all proportion to the kidnap of its two soldiers. It is this repeated behaviour and our tacit support of it that fuels the hatred and violence spiralling the Arab/Muslim world out of control.

If young impressionable minds have not already been converted to aspiring terrorists by the Iraq war they surely will by these events.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

As I recall, the day had been too hot, the beer was too cold, and the conversation with the bartender too weird to discuss anything remotely like that.

whoa, rockets into Haifa, that's not smart. Syria and Lebanon better start reigning in their proxies or it's going to be a loud night in Damascus and Beirut.

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True - I don't recall throwing anything at anyone, especially you.

Anybody else think it's ironic that Haifa and Beirut are the ones getting shelled? These are two of the most religiously and ethnically diverse cities in the entire region.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

The PA is not under Israeli control.

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If you don't see overwhelming economic power and control over borders as control, you are correct the PA is independant. A functioning state requires a functioning economy, and Israel is actively working to destroy the PA economy. Look no further than destroying Power Stations.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

There are plenty of countries with high unemployment that don't repeatedly attack their neighbors in suicide terrorist attacks that target civilians. Take your pick of several dozen. In fact, show me one that behaves as the Palestinians have, I double dare you.

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Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, need I go on? Domestic disturbances - France? Broadly stated high unemployment = social problems. The victims vary with ideology, the cause is the same

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But the facts on the ground are that Israel is conducting an atrocity out of all proportion to the kidnap of its two soldiers. It is this repeated behaviour and our tacit support of it that fuels the hatred and violence spiralling the Arab/Muslim world out of control.

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But to read this as a response simply to two kidnappings is wrong, as is calling self-defense an 'atrocity'. This was the fifth recent attempt at kidnapping in the north, and the Palestinians have fired nearly 1000 rockets into Israel over the past year. In that context, it's hardly reasonable to now call for restraint for only one side. Israel should conduct a very intensive military operation for its own sake.

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If young impressionable minds have not already been converted to aspiring terrorists by the Iraq war they surely will by these events.

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Iraq is a different story since it hadn't attacked the U.S., but in light of the thousands of attacks against Israel, the above is a blame the victim mythology that is based in anti-Israel philosophy (I've never seen anyone post a justification for Israel mounting attacks on Palestinian schools or restaurants that is based on what the Palestinians have done).

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Originally Posted by cj001f

If you don't see overwhelming economic power and control over borders as control, you are correct the PA is independant. A functioning state requires a functioning economy, and Israel is actively working to destroy the PA economy. Look no further than destroying Power Stations.

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The Palestinians declared war on Israel, and their government's stated goal is its destruction. What do you expect? It's war, despite efforts to the contrary. The Palestinians may not deserve this, but they effectively asked for it.

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Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, need I go on? Domestic disturbances - France? Broadly stated high unemployment = social problems. The victims vary with ideology, the cause is the same

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Sorry, not what you said. None of those countries have a systemic policy of terrorist attacks against their neighbors--we weren't talking about unemployment leading to social problems. Regardless, it's not a justification for what the PA has done (with that logic you can justify any action at all).

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Sorry, not what you said. None of those countries have a systemic policy of terrorist attacks against their neighbors--we weren't talking about unemployment leading to social problems.

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I said:

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Show me a nation with high unemployment that doesn't have a problem with crime, violence and extremism Dexter. I double dare you.

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I'm sorry you can't and won't see the connection between them. Have a nice day.

Still wrong with your selective quoting. Here's what you said earlier:

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cut the palestinians at the kneecaps so there's 80% unemployment and you are surprised when terror is on the increase?)

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To claim that we were not discussing terrorism as an effect is disingenuous, although you don't want to admit that.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

In their attacks and actions the past 5 years Israel has shown a systematic desire to dismantle the Palestinian economy - cutting off guest workers - now destroying infrastructure.

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You can't lay these things at the feet of Israel.


-Guest workers were allowed in Israel until Israeli busses started blowing up.

-The palestinian infastrusture was not being damaged until an Israeli soldier was kidnapped and taken into the interior(if you can call it that) of Palestinian controlled territory.


The palestinian people will never be allowed to govern themselves(nor should they be) until they show a willingness to police themselves and live peacefully with their neighbors. So far, they haven't done this.
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"BEIRUT, July 13 (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah group denied on Thursday it had fired a rocket at Israel's third largest city, Haifa.
"An official at the Islamic Resistance has denied that it bombarded the city of Haifa," a Hizbollah spokesman told Reuters."

So what gives?

edit: i mean since they had already threatened to hit Haifa--who else would have done it? Is it even possible for anyone else (except Syria, which I wouldn't believe).

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

But to read this as a response simply to two kidnappings is wrong, as is calling self-defense an 'atrocity'. This was the fifth recent attempt at kidnapping in the north, and the Palestinians have fired nearly 1000 rockets into Israel over the past year. In that context, it's hardly reasonable to now call for restraint for only one side. Israel should conduct a very intensive military operation for its own sake.

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Right it started with the one kidnapping on the 25th when someone decided it was a good idea to dig a tunnel into Israel and kidnap an Israeli citizen now they want a rule no hitting in the face fuck that. And good for Israel for having a set of balls to start blowing shit up when their country is invaded and a soldier snatched. The US government should take notice and learn something here. We have troops beheaded and are afraid to do anything. Watch this all turn into Israel’s fault for defending themselves.

Here's our "Factbox" for today:

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FACTBOX-Developments in the Middle East on July 13
July 13 (Reuters) - The following are security developments in the Middle East on Thursday as of 1745 GMT.
Asterisk denotes a new or updated item.
LEBANON:
* Air strikes in south Lebanon kill at least 53 civilians and wound 100 people, security sources said.
* Israeli naval vessels enforcing a siege, turn away three ships carrying fuel to Beirut.
* Israeli helicopters fire on three of Hizbollah's al-Manar television facilities. One person is killed and 10 wounded.
- Israel blockades Lebanese ports, saying they are used to transfer "terrorists and weapons to the terror organisations".
- Israeli aircraft bomb a military airbase in the eastern Bekaa Valley, near Syrian border, the base for Lebanon's two dozen old U.S.-made helicopters.
- Israeli aircraft bomb the small military airport of Qulayaat in northern Lebanon.
- Senior Israeli officer says air and sea blockade will continue during a "long" operation against Hizbollah in Lebanon.
- Israel says it will strike the highway linking Beirut and Damascus.
- Kuwait says two of its citizens were killed in Israeli air raids on southern Lebanon.
- Israeli army warns Lebanon to evacuate residents from a southern Beirut neighbourhood where it believes Hizbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah lives.
- Hizbollah says its guerrillas will bombard Israel's third-largest city, Haifa, if Israel attacks targets in Beirut.
- Israeli aircraft bomb runways at Beirut's Rafik al-Hariri International Airport, forcing flights to divert to Cyprus.
ISRAEL:
* Hizbollah fires some 85 rockets into nearly 20 towns in northern Israel, killing a civilian and wounding 42 others.
* The Israeli army says a rocket fired by Hizbollah hit the Israeli city of Haifa, the Jewish state's third-largest city. The Israeli ambassador to the United States calls the attack a "major, major escalation." Hizbollah denies it fired the rocket.
GAZA:
- An Israeli air strike destroys the office of Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar.
- A separate air strike near Deir el-Balah kills an Islamic Jihad militant and wounds another gunman.
OTHER DEVELOPMENTS:
* Israel says it is concerned that Iranian-backed Hizbollah guerrillas could take two captured soldiers from Lebanon to Iran. Iran denies the suggestion.
- The Israeli ambassador to the United States says Iran and Syria are "playing with fire" and "will face consequences."
- U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan will send a three-man team to the Middle East to urge restraint.
- Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi al-Aridi says Lebanon wants a comprehensive ceasefire and an end to "this open-ended aggression" by Israel.
- U.S. President George W. Bush defends Israeli attack, but warns Israel not to weaken Lebanon's fragile government.
- French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy calls Israel's bombardment of Beirut airport "a disproportionate act of war", saying there was a real risk of a regional war.
- Douste-Blazy says Hizbollah's firing of rockets into Israel and seizure of soldiers were "irresponsible acts".
- Palestinian security sources say Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas held secret talks on July 11 with Israeli security chief to try to end the crisis.
- Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora says his government does not endorse the Hizbollah operation.
- British Prime Minister Tony Blair calls on all sides to exercise restraint and return to negotiations.
- Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Israel's attack on Lebanon and its operations against the Palestinian territories are a "disproportionate response".
- Arab foreign ministers will meet in Cairo on Saturday

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Usually I'm not one for run-on sentences, but in Mr. Tuckerman's case I'll make an exception.

I still think the best World War III was in 1997, when Scott Hall beat Diamond Dallas Page. But for sheer nostalgia, 1995's Randy Savage-Hulk Hogan was tops.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

I wouldn't argue with your edits. For any human in the 21st century to be arguing some kind of special entitlement because of their race or worse their religon is a disgrace to our species.

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That may be an "enlightened" point of view, but it is a POV that most of the population of the world does not share with you.

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It is this repeated behaviour and our tacit support of it that fuels the hatred and violence spiralling the Arab/Muslim world out of control.

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If young impressionable minds have not already been converted to aspiring terrorists by the Iraq war they surely will by these events.

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People in that region of the world have been killing each other for millenia. They would be killing each other right now wether we were there or not. The board would just be laid out differently if we weren't involved.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

You can't lay these things at the feet of Israel.

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I'm not laying this at the feet of Israel - but I can see how those who view the conflict in binary terms would think that. Merely pointing out situations where Israeli actions have perpetuated the problem in the short term at a minimum. You can argue moral absolutes and philosophy if you want, rarely do those produce positive solutions in the real world. The conditioned statehood the US & Israel have backed for the PA merely gives them a more legitimate (IMO, and many peoples) grievance to add to their long list of rightfully/wrongfully perceived grievances.

Dexter- social problems can manifest themselves in a myriad ways internal and external. The arab world is venting the result of internal problems (high unemployment) externally in terror - S. Arabia (9/11, hello?!), Pakistan (they were probably involved in the 200 fatality bombing yesterday, but that doesn't count :rolleyes: )

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Originally Posted by Tuckerman

The US government should take notice and learn something here. We have troops beheaded and are afraid to do anything...

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Yeah, because occupying a country and trying to track down those that did the beheading (eventually leading to a certain Beheader's dead head on TV) is doing nothing. Really we should just indiscriminately bomb anything that moves. Oh.... wait....

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Originally Posted by Steven S. Dallas

I still think the best World War III was in 1997, when Scott Hall beat Diamond Dallas Page. But for sheer nostalgia, 1995's Randy Savage-Hulk Hogan was tops.

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You are completely forgetting when Hulk Hogan BODYSLAMMED Andre the Giant in front of the largest indoor sporting even ever--Wrestlemania III at the Pontiac Silverdome. That was a World War.

Page top bitches

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Yeah, because occupying a country and trying to track down those that did the beheading (eventually leading to a certain Beheader's dead head on TV) is doing nothing. Really we should just indiscriminately bomb anything that moves. Oh.... wait....

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Good we can agree to agree then.

Assad is looking over at ahmadinejad and is saying "Are you really sure this is a good idea?"

Using this Hamas and Hezbollah as a diversion from their ill advised choice to ignore the offer we gave them this week is growing tiresome. What the Syrians have perpetrated on the Lebanese is fucking criminal.

I knew he could not stay away
from VOA News:

"The United States Wednesday demanded the immediate release of two Israeli soldiers captured by Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas, and said it holds Iran and Syria responsible for the new outburst of Middle East violence. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is telephoning leaders in the region to try to ease the crisis."

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

-The palestinian infastrusture was not being damaged until an Israeli soldier was kidnapped and taken into the interior(if you can call it that) of Palestinian controlled territory.


The palestinian people will never be allowed to govern themselves(nor should they be) until they show a willingness to police themselves and live peacefully with their neighbors. So far, they haven't done this.

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Back when the israelies locked arafat in his house for a year or so, destroyed the airport, wrecked palestinian police stations and other gov't buildings... well, I'd call that destoying Palestinian infrastructure.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Israel is totally in the moral right. Now, with that out of the way, let's be pragmatic. What is the best way to resolve this conflict?

- Will collective punishment resolve the problem? If so, how and when? Those of you who support collective punishment please speak up. How many people do you think need to die, or how many buildings need to be destroyed, before the corrupt regimes surrounding Israel shape up?

- Will the destruction of infrastructure (Palestinian and Lebanese) encourage those gov'ts to work with israel? Will it similarly encourage the local population? Why won't it leave a mess of a failed state behind that will serve as a further breeding ground for terrorists?

Essentially, I think Israel's actions are counter-productive. They can't occupy and hold territory, but they can whup ass when and how they feel like it. But with each attack or incursion they create more resentment and hate. It may be "morally right" for Israel to respond as it has, but is it productive? Will it get them what they want? Or will it leave them surrounded by failed states who do not have the power or authority to reign in or respond to the extremists in their populations?

Also, Zionist is not a racist term. At least as I use it it refers to someone who with near unquestioning certitude believes in the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Essentially, it's an israeli Patriot (though they may not be a citizen).

And finally, Israeli falafel sucks. Turkish is better, but my heart belongs with Lebanese falafel.... hhmmmmm tasty.