Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

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Originally Posted by Dhelihiker

You act as if forming a group greater than 10 somehow causes widespread death. It’s such a leap in logic. .

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One group of ten is pretty close to harmless. A bunch of groups of ten, now the virus is spreading, out to get us, widespread death (Wuhan, Italy, Spain, NYC).

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Originally Posted by Dhelihiker

I have not heard one person on this forum mention the millions of super hard working Americans that area going to lose everything. The business owners that employ millions of people that are going to lose it all. My coworkers friend that killed himself yesterday because he lost his business.

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Sorry about your coworker's friend.

I believe we all want the economy going great again ASAP. Problem is that's not going to happen with Covid spreading rapidly. Until people feel safe, the economy will not recover, and may get worse. To make people feel safe, we could silence doctors and lie. But that's un-American, and unworkable anyway, so scratch that. We could demonstrate dramatically falling case counts and then South Korea-like infection control. We could invent a vaccine. Waiting for vaccine will be really hard on the economy. Maybe we're lucky and the fringe theories are correct that either we're all exposed already, or those of us who aren't sick are resistant, or the IFR is really low (this last one is dead). IMHO we're not that lucky, but I'm happy to be wrong.

We already tried to run the economy without distancing. That was an obvious failure by mid-March (earlier for anyone who noticed Wuhan). Cases skyrocket, hospitals get overwhelmed, bodes pile up fast.

Basically, we need great infection control to reduce cases. And we need personal protection and distancing in the right places effective enough to keep cases very low. Then we can make a believable "it's just like a bad flu" argument, so long as we maintain strong infection control and low case counts.

There's a balance, but I personally think 2,000 dying per day is too high. And I see that number multiplying if we loosen today's level of virus control. We need to encourage the public health experts to implement practices that allow a high level of infection control *and* economic recovery. Individually, we need to do our best not to spread it until we all know and demonstrate best practices. Currently, we're running a minimal economy, and only holding new infections and deaths even. We must do better.

Americans in Hawaii and Montana have demonstrated the level of virus suppression in the IHME models. New Yorkers are also showing great progress. The rest of us... we can do this.

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Also, suicide is not that simple. Sorry for your friend’s loss.

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With the economy crashed, many *are* losing everything. Losing everything is really hard. People get really attached to what they do and how they contribute to society. You spend your whole life training yourself, planning, building your business, caring for those who depend on you. Becoming dependent after building a life of independence. Losing your life role can overwhelm.

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Originally Posted by XXX-er

was it over when the Germans bombed pearl harbour ?
]

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It sure was when we found the lost ark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcR9k8o4I0w

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Originally Posted by bodywhomper

Also, suicide is not that simple. Sorry for your friend’s loss.

Nevada county just lost one of its high school basketball head coaches from covid.

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if suicides' and our mental health failings was simple bourdain would probably still be around
and another 620 utards every year
rip ace and demo woman
and the er doc who got covid survived and took her own life
every death is a 1 as Jim Harrison said
count compare contrast whatever it doesn't change that 1 or any others

@Dheli
Then advocate for more worker aid. Also, if you open up everything tomorrow, we know two things are going to happen:
1. Lots more people get the virus, quickly
2. Retail and other activity will be severely depressed as those that can avoid it, do.

Because of 1, many more will die that don't need to as medical systems become strained/overwhelmed. Because of 2 (look at early reports out of GA indicating 10-50% of normal traffic), it doesn't get them out of the economic hole. Also, permanently removing 2-4% of the population doesn't do good things for a consumption based economy.

So what do we do? Ideally, we have a sane rescue package that kicks cans like mortgage payments down the road. But we don't, because prez and Senate leadership don't give a shit about those hard workers. So agitate for fixing that.

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Originally Posted by schuss

@Dheli
Then advocate for more worker aid. Also, if you open up everything tomorrow, we know two things are going to happen:
1. Lots more people get the virus, quickly
2. Retail and other activity will be severely depressed as those that can avoid it, do.

Because of 1, many more will die that don't need to as medical systems become strained/overwhelmed. Because of 2 (look at early reports out of GA indicating 10-50% of normal traffic), it doesn't get them out of the economic hole. Also, permanently removing 2-4% of the population doesn't do good things for a consumption based economy.

So what do we do? Ideally, we have a sane rescue package that kicks cans like mortgage payments down the road. But we don't, because prez and Senate leadership don't give a shit about those hard workers. So agitate for fixing that.

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yeah, but that’s a logical argument n’ shit and the REOPEN crap is impenetrable emotional covid denialist bullshit

but despite being a minority, those angry idiots are gonna get the us doing the worst possible path.

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Originally Posted by skifishbum

if suicides' and our mental health failings was simple bourdain would probably still be around
and another 620 utards every year
rip ace and demo woman
and the er doc who got covid survived and took her own life
every death is a 1 as Jim Harrison said
count compare contrast whatever it doesn't change that 1 or any others

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+1,000

Ski fish bumming is the solution

actually I work to much for true bum status the balance of honest days work of menial labor on a team I enjoy being part of provides the passion I don't know would exist if I only spent time on ski fish bummery and a key to my personal mental health

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Originally Posted by Viva

I digress here, but my daughter's maternal grandmother passed away from gastric cancer a week and a half ago. Jr.'s aunts and uncle authorized chemo beforehand, even though granny was very close to death, and never told her. They couldn't give their mother the opportunity to decide how she wanted to live her final days. I don't know what the grandmother's mental state was, though. Perhaps decision-making was beyond her by that time, Still, a lot of inter-familial strife was going on that final couple of months, from what I've heard. Other than her mom and one wack-job cousin, I'm relieved that I never met the rest of that family.

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I'm sorry for your family's loss. Must have been tough on your daughter to watch her grandmother die that way.
Very often the patient doesn't want measures like cpr, ventilators, chemo, etc but the family pushes them into it. And of course the willingness of a cancer sufferer to go all out decreases with age.
I've given it a lot of thought lately--I had a very big heart operation in October and put a lot of thought into my advanced directive. And now I'm rethinking. Would I want to be put on a ventilator if I get the Covid--given the poor outcome maybe not, but not hopeless, so maybe so. I think what frightens me most is the idea of being sedated and paralyzed and having no say in what happens to me and not even being aware of what's going on.

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I think what frightens me most is the idea of being sedated and paralyzed and having no say in what happens to me and not even being aware of what's going on.

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Nail-on-the-head.

Been promising my sister a Final Wishes/Medical Directive for over 4 months now.

Final Wishes was pretty easy. Medical Directive has been difficult to write because it is so difficult to think about. So many impossible to predict scenarios.

20 20 20 4 hrs to go
I wanna be sedated

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Originally Posted by Summit

It blew my mind how many CT surg cases I'd take care of and they didn't understand why they hurt. It seemed nobody explained that having their sternum cracked would hurt, that recovery would hurt, that PT would hurt, and that no appropriate amount of pain meds would make *all* the pain go away.

I didn't realize you were a thoracic surgeon. You come across with a different personality than the average (in a positive way) ;)

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Thanks. I was mainly a vascular surgeon but did general and non cardiac thoracic as well.
I used to tell people a sternotomy wasn't that bad. I was wrong.
Pro tip (from a professional patient, which is all I am any more). They give you a pillow to press over your sternum when you cough. Doesn't help much. Instead, wrap your arms around your chest, holding the pillow in place over the sternum with your forearms, and then press in on your chest from the sides with your upper arms and hands while you cough. Much more effective. I figured that one out on my own, wish I had known it from the start.

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Originally Posted by hutash

I will to defer to you on this point and bow to your experience and expertise. This has not been my experience, but maybe that it because I will not let an MD get away with it. All the MDs I have know both professionally and personally won't get away with this, and the vast majority of veterinarians I know would not do this. Maybe if people just went to the vet instead...?

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Just don't go to a vet for a vasectomy. You might wind up with more (less) than you bargained for.
No need to bow. A simple namaste will do.
Glad your experience in getting straight talk from doctors has been better than what I've seen too often. And of course it's unfair of me to generalize. There are plenty of docs who are not afraid to tell the truth. And then there's the other extreme--being too blunt about it. It can be a fine line between being too timid and too blunt in giving bad news. I was probably on the too blunt side.

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Originally Posted by LongShortLong

With the economy crashed, many *are* losing everything. Losing everything is really hard. People get really attached to what they do and how they contribute to society. You spend your whole life training yourself, planning, building your business, caring for those who depend on you. Becoming dependent after building a life of independence. Losing your life role can overwhelm.

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But we're saving lives.

Imagine if we banned going outside, plastics, chemicals and blew 10 Trillion on cancer research. Wed save 10x as many lives in year one.

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Originally Posted by Deebased

But we're saving lives.

Imagine if we banned going outside, plastics, chemicals and blew 10 Trillion on cancer research. Wed save 10x as many lives in year one.

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As long as year one isn't 2020.

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Originally Posted by jono

As long as year one isn't 2020.

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Why not?

Keep America closed and living forever.

It'll be just like the matrix but with slightly larger pods.

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Originally Posted by Deebased

Why not?

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Because in 2020 there aren't enough potential cancer deaths to rival the number of potential COVID-19 deaths, let alone 10x.

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Originally Posted by jono

Because in 2020 there aren't enough potential cancer deaths to rival the number of potential COVID-19 deaths, let alone 10x.

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Cancer is way ahead of Covid on a monthly and annual basis.

We're going to need a much stronger virus if it wants to compete.

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Originally Posted by Deebased

Cancer is way ahead of Covid on a monthly and annual basis.

We're going to need a much stronger virus if it wants to compete.

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Not this month.

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Originally Posted by Deebased

Cancer is way ahead of Covid on a monthly and annual basis.

We're going to need a much stronger virus if it wants to compete.

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About 50,000 deaths per month in the US due to cancer and that number is fairly consistent over the last few years. Covid is listed at 70,000 in the last five weeks. Not looking to debate whether or not anyone believes the numbers for Covid deaths. Looks like Covid is punching right in its weight class.

The money overlords will always have an "acceptable" amount of death to keep making money. Covid is fucking with their models because it's contagious and the money guys can't figure out how bad it will be.

My bet is if the current administration could with low error say we are only going to lose 50,000 per month and plan on that number, we'd be back to business as usual already. They're scared and they're scared to let the public know that with the election coming up.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

About 50,000 deaths per month in the US due to cancer and that number is fairly consistent over the last few years. Covid is listed at 70,000 in the last five weeks. Not looking to debate whether or not anyone believes the numbers for Covid deaths. Looks like Covid is punching right in its weight class.

The money overlords will always have an "acceptable" amount of death to keep making money. Covid is fucking with their models because it's contagious and the money guys can't figure out how bad it will be.

My bet is if the current administration could with low error say we are only going to lose 50,000 per month and plan on that number, we'd be back to business as usual already. They're scared and they're scared to let the public know that with the election coming up.

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With the nature of c19 they can’t. The problem with “reopening” is the businesses where ~50% of the workers get sick https://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...094aef5b5.html

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2 Utah County businesses told staff to ignore COVID-19 guidelines, resulting in 68 positive cases

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see similar with the meat packing plants, etc. hard to run a biz with no workers.

so what trumps going to do instead is bullshit about it.

Um, how about, cancer isn't contagious?

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Originally Posted by Dhelihiker

I have not heard one person on this forum mention the millions of super hard working Americans that area going to lose everything.

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The fuck are you talking about? Of course it's been talked about. It's one of the central themes of the whole thread.

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Originally Posted by The AD

Then I don't think you've been paying much attention to this thread.

Pretty sure everyone realizes this sucks all the way around.

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by dunfree

With the nature of c19 they can’t. The problem with “reopening” is the businesses where ~50% of the workers get sick https://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...094aef5b5.html



see similar with the meat packing plants, etc. hard to run a biz with no workers.

so what trumps going to do instead is bullshit about it.

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Exactly. It's quite telling of our national leadership or lack of.

I see Hutash has reached the wishing someone to die stage of his panic. Stay classy in that ivory tower champ.