Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[Viva]

The problem with this virus is that we really understand very little about it.

I disagree. We have nearly twenty years of research on the first SARS-Corona virus. We know a great deal about that virus, and were conducting vaccine studies before the epidemic went bye-bye and government funding (and the market) dried up. SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-Cov-2 are closely related, giving us a wealth of existing learnings and a hudge step up. We know that most folks will not be significantly affected by it. We know it's cell surface target and understand how to neutralize it. We know that it's not a difficult agent to combat. That there are over seventy candidate vaccines demonstrates how much we know about this bugger. Therapeutics for infected people I don't know so much about.

[Deebased]

I digress here, but my daughter's maternal grandmother passed away from gastric cancer a week and a half ago. Jr.'s aunts and uncle authorized chemo beforehand, even though granny was very close to death, and never told her. They couldn't give their mother the opportunity to decide how she wanted to live her final days. I don't know what the grandmother's mental state was, though. Perhaps decision-making was beyond her by that time, Still, a lot of inter-familial strife was going on that final couple of months, from what I've heard. Other than her mom and one wack-job cousin, I'm relieved that I never met the rest of that family.

When you're at or think you're at deaths door shit changes fast.


Look at this thread for examples

[Buster Highmen]

I disagree. We have nearly twenty years of research on the first SARS-Corona virus. We know a great deal about that virus, and were conducting vaccine studies before the epidemic went bye-bye and government funding dried up. SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-Cov-2 are closely related, giving us a wealth of existing learnings and a hudge step up. We know that most folks will not be significantly affected by it. We know it's cell surface target and understand how to neutralize it. We know that it's not a difficult agent to combat. That there are over seventy candidate vaccines demonstrates how much we know about this bugger. Therapeutics for infected people I don't know so much about.

Viva, c'mon. You may know a lot about the virus, but Joe Citizen by and large doesn't.

Of course we know how to combat it.

Getting our automatic rifles and guns and threatening and shooting people is not the way to do it. Nor is ignoring the suggestions and requirements to mask, glove, and distance.

[highangle]

War Losses (USA) American losses in World War I were modest compared to those of other belligerents, with 116,516 deaths and approximately 320,000 sick and wounded of the 4.7 million men who served. The USA lost more personnel to disease (63,114) than to combat (53,402), largely due to the influenza epidemic of 1918.


doi.org

[LongShortLong]

The point is simple. I have never once in my life worried about getting pneumonia yet comparatively it’s twice as deadly and it’s been around a long time.

People are scared shitless of Covid and not pneumonia? That’s strange to me, something is different.

In an effort to have an intelligent conversation on TGR, why is Covid so much scarier?

It's scarier b/c all signs are that left to burn itself out, it'll kill about 1% of us. For me personally, a 1% chance of dying is something to avoid if possible. There's also the question of disability. Covid puts 5% of us in the ICU. I read that typically half of ICU patients who worked prior to ICU never recover enough to be able to return to work. Some fraction of the remaining 95% may have lingering issues as well, idk. Return to work is a lower standard than return to skiing. So, say we're talking between death and ICU injury, there's a 3-4% chance I won't be able to ski any more. Otherwise, I have better than 99.9% chance of being able to ski next winter.

Maybe it's ok for you, but losing my remaining ski seasons is pretty scary.

[Dantheman]

The pneumonia argument is poorly formed.

The facts are that for US adults, pneumonia is the most common cause of hospital admissions other than women giving birth. About 1 million adults in the US seek care in a hospital due to pneumonia every year, and 50,000 die from this disease.

Already, within 5 months, 71,000 people have died of COVID-19 complications.

There were only about 2,000 COVID deaths in the US on April 1st, so it's really 70,000 dead in 5 weeks.

[KQ]

There were only about 2,000 COVID deaths in the US on April 1st, so it's really 70,000 dead in 5 weeks.

but... but .... they all had underlying conditions and were too old to contribute to the good of the country anyway.....

[LongShortLong]

Those people may look like tools but they are 100% right to protest. You have rights as an American. It’s amazing how they have trained you all to think that your rights are revocable.

Get in line sheeple.

Those "tools" are impeding my right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. - Decl Independence

They are also interfering with promotion of the general welfare. - Constitution, opening paragraph

I didn't watch "those people," but depending on their actions, they aren't helping domestic tranquility either. However, so long as they follow lawful health orders and other laws, they are welcome to protest, file lawsuits, petition, etc. I do hope they'll first spend some time reading up on epidemics.

Our health officers are responding to many people's 1st Amendment rights to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Normally, I'm a sheep, but I made 3 petitions myself, all requesting lockdown to prevent avoidable disease and death.

[Rideski]

War Losses (USA) American losses in World War I were modest compared to those of other belligerents, with 116,516 deaths and approximately 320,000 sick and wounded of the 4.7 million men who served. The USA lost more personnel to disease (63,114) than to combat (53,402), largely due to the influenza epidemic of 1918.


doi.org

Can you imagine if (when) people start dropping bombs on amurika?
All the idiots running around looking to sue people.
This is infringing on my rights, we can do whatever we want, and we don’t want people dropping bombs on us. You said you’d protect us from this.

[Buster Highmen]

There were only about 2,000 COVID deaths in the US on April 1st, so it's really 70,000 dead in 5 weeks.

I was giving lots of flexibility for the COVID-19 stats in pointing out that the pneumonia comparison is phallacious.

[Mokomahonah]

So what’s up with this 6 foot bullshit anyway. Who came up with that one? Like yeah right, everything magically drops out of the air at precisely 6 feet or less.

Really?
The euros are using 2 meters. That's actually more than 6 feet. Hell what's a foot exactly anyway?

I havent seen an explanation, but my guess is that it's something like a Danger = N/x^3 (but actually more complicated) relationship where N is the viral load coming out of infected person, and x is the distance away. 6 feet is enough to reduce that load significantly.
Other guesses:
It's about the height of a man?
Length of big boy skiis?
6 is the devil's number? (but then the 2 meters?...)


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[k2skier112]

I disagree. We have nearly twenty years of research on the first SARS-Corona virus. We know a great deal about that virus, and were conducting vaccine studies before the epidemic went bye-bye and government funding (and the market) dried up. SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-Cov-2 are closely related, giving us a wealth of existing learnings and a hudge step up. We know that most folks will not be significantly affected by it. We know it's cell surface target and understand how to neutralize it. We know that it's not a difficult agent to combat. That there are over seventy candidate vaccines demonstrates how much we know about this bugger. Therapeutics for infected people I don't know so much about.

What's your job in the medical profession?

[summit]

A lot of that money is spent because the docs don't have the balls to tell patients the truth. It's easier to put someone on chemo than to deal with the emotions of telling them it won't do any good and that they would be better off enjoying the time they have. And people have been brainwashed to believe they have to fight cancer to the bitter end. If the docs would just give them honest numbers a lot of people would say no.

I can't tell you how many times someone was sent to me to remove a lung lobe or whole lung for cancer and the patient had never been told they have cancer, just some vague "growth". Docs will say the patient isn't ready to hear the truth when in fact it's the doc that isn't ready.

A lot of this applies to Covid 19.

It blew my mind how many CT surg cases I'd take care of and they didn't understand why they hurt. It seemed nobody explained that having their sternum cracked would hurt, that recovery would hurt, that PT would hurt, and that no appropriate amount of pain meds would make *all* the pain go away.

I didn't realize you were a thoracic surgeon. You come across with a different personality than the average (in a positive way)

[hutash]

Those people may look like tools but they are 100% right to protest. You have rights as an American. It’s amazing how they have trained you all to think that your rights are revocable.

Get in line sheeple.


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They have a right to protest, but are not right to protest...big difference. See sig below.

[The SnowShow]

Saw this online. Torchy’s in Denver tonight. Why is it so fucking hard to just physically distance and wear a fucking mask?

[The AD]

People are scared shitless of Covid and not pneumonia? That’s strange to me, something is different.

Wait, aren't most people who are dying from COVID-19 dying as the result of pneumonia? Of course people should be scared of pneumonia. Especially pneumonia caused by something virulent like coronavirus.

[Benny Profane]

Your sarcasm meter is broke

I'm betting he's passed out from early binge drinking by now.

[hutash]

A lot of that money is spent because the docs don't have the balls to tell patients the truth. It's easier to put someone on chemo than to deal with the emotions of telling them it won't do any good and that they would be better off enjoying the time they have. And people have been brainwashed to believe they have to fight cancer to the bitter end. If the docs would just give them honest numbers a lot of people would say no.

I can't tell you how many times someone was sent to me to remove a lung lobe or whole lung for cancer and the patient had never been told they have cancer, just some vague "growth". Docs will say the patient isn't ready to hear the truth when in fact it's the doc that isn't ready.

A lot of this applies to Covid 19.

I will to defer to you on this point and bow to your experience and expertise. This has not been my experience, but maybe that it because I will not let an MD get away with it. All the MDs I have know both professionally and personally won't get away with this, and the vast majority of veterinarians I know would not do this. Maybe if people just went to the vet instead...?

[westoxified]

Saw this online. Torchy’s in Denver tonight. Why is it so fucking hard to just physically distance and wear a fucking mask?

Same reason they crowd a luggage carousel?

Mine.

The mask? Exceptionalism.

[hutash]

The point is simple. I have never once in my life worried about getting pneumonia yet comparatively it’s twice as deadly and it’s been around a long time.

People are scared shitless of Covid and not pneumonia? That’s strange to me, something is different.

In an effort to have an intelligent conversation on TGR, why is Covid so much scarier?




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That's because you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. I don't worry about pneumonia if it is a treatable pneumonia, but I am scared shitless of COVID induce pneumonia. Pneumonia is not a disease, its a condition. There are dozens if not more causes of pneumonia. Some are easy to treat, and others are a disaster. To put it simply, pneumonia is fluid in the lungs. It can be caused by many bacteria, viruses, fungus, smoke, toxins, salt water, fresh water, cancer, food, foreign bodies, organ dysfunction, etc, etc, etc.

Pneumonia is just the last straw for many people when everything else has gone to shit. If you are not worried about pneumonia induced by COVID-19, you should be.

[uglymoney]

Sorry if this is a repeat. I tuned out of the Covid debacle for a few days. We went for a boat ride on Saturday and what we saw on the boat ramp, in the parks, it is obvious we are fucked in the coming couple weeks. With no leadership to hold us together for a common purpose we are doomed to fail. Something as simple as leaders demonstrating and describing proper mask usage. Instead we get wishy washy signals that are being interpreted as green lights to mingle from the low information and the impotent minds of the bootlickers. People are still working together all over with mask usage being arbitrary and haphazard at best. Best we can all do is try to protect ourselves the best we can for as long as possible but the writing is on the wall. Dear leader wants us to be his Guinea Pigs so his hotels stay shiny.

[PB]

I will to defer to you on this point and bow to your experience and expertise. This has not been my experience, but maybe that it because I will not let an MD get away with it. All the MDs I have know both professionally and personally won't get away with this, and the vast majority of veterinarians I know would not do this. Maybe if people just went to the vet instead...?

^^^ This. It's strange but, as much as we l love our pets, we're much better at releasing them when it's time. Children, in particular, often have a hard time letting go of their parents. I'm about to have a discussion with my wife about advanced medical directives ....... I'm happy with whatever she want's for herself (or so I think right now) but I'm pretty sure she's not gonna like what I wish for myself. Oh, and she's a vet. Go figure.

[summit]

no, the narrative has changed to "the numbers are fake"

Yea I noticed they stopped trying to say that CFR was equal to flu... then it was IFR was equal to flu.... now its "deaths are fake, nobody is dying of COVID... its all sky diving and pneumonia!"

Ok genius, go do some research and tell me how many people have died of pneumonia vs Covid in the same time period.

You think believing in your rights is a Trump thing or an Alex Jones thing??? You should turn off CNN and learn how to read.

First let me say that I'm all about individual liberty. I have a great deal of libertarian leanings... except in time of war. None of that has anything to do with Trump, who I view as a rejection of the system, or Alex Jones, who I view as a symptom of glorifying conspiratorial infotainment emergent from internet ideological echochambers.

Now, let me tell you that you a full on dictionary level example of confirmation-bias dunning-kreuger believe whatever the internet tells you as long as its what you want to hear douchebaggery. Am I an ass? That's besides the point. Hear me out:

You THINK pneumonia is something DIFFERENT than COVID.

It isn't.

Pneumonia is dysfunctional condition of the lung tissue. It is the primary way through which COVID causes respiratory failure and death. COVID of course kills other ways as well (heart attack, stroke, kidney failure, etc).

Many infections (and other things) cause pneumonia. Flu causes pneumonia in some. Many respiratory viruses cause physiological effects and damage that causes pneumonia or makes the lungs ripe for bacterial infections that cause what is medically termed a secondary bacterial pneumonia that would not have happened without those severe viral illnesses... causal!

I get to look at mind boggling amounts of data stemming from infectious disease testing over a large geographical region that covers millions of people. We do tons of testing when people come to hospitals with respiratory disease and influenza like illness. I could see from lab data which particular strain of influenza was dominant in hospital admissions, and which of several other viral illnesses that you likely have not heard of were causing disease. We tested more and more people for all these viral diseases starting in late Feb.

Total numbers of viral infections (except for C19) are down despite increased tests. Not just down, but cratered to the floor. As in over a dozen hospitals and haven't seen a single case of influenza in a month and only a dozen people in these hospitals have had viral respiratory illnesses other than COVID-19.

People are dying of pneumonia. But not all of them tested positive for COVID-19. Yes there is still primary bacterial pneumonia, aspiration pneumonia, chemical pneumonitis, etc. But the vast majority are COVID *right now* and the ones that get called COVID are COVID and have COVID signs and symptoms without other explanations, even when they don't have a positive COVID test ! There is up to a 30% false negative test rate, particularly in the advanced pneumonia cases. Many more were sent home without testing.

But go ahead and believe that pneumonia is something currently distinct from COVID-19. Because that is what some screen shot of from a facebook page linking to an article told you and its all because its a conspiracy to inflate numbers to justify killing the economy or make hospitals money or mind control or whatever it was that the meme said that matched what you expected/wanted to hear. And everyone is in on it. Except you, you clever anti-sheep...

So yes, I'm an ass, I can't change that. But you don't have to be an idiot. You can choose to think more critically.

[hutash]

...

So yes, I'm an ass, I can't change that. But you don't have to be an idiot. You can choose to think more critically.

Well, that sums it up nicely, and gets to the core of most problems. We have a serious shortage of critical thought, and way too many parrots.

[Adolf Allerbush]

That's because you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. I don't worry about pneumonia if it is a treatable pneumonia, but I am scared shitless of COVID induce pneumonia. Pneumonia is not a disease, its a condition. There are dozens if not more causes of pneumonia. Some are easy to treat, and others are a disaster. To put it simply, pneumonia is fluid in the lungs. It can be caused by many bacteria, viruses, fungus, smoke, toxins, salt water, fresh water, cancer, food, foreign bodies, organ dysfunction, etc, etc, etc.

Pneumonia is just the last straw for many people when everything else has gone to shit. If you are not worried about pneumonia induced by COVID-19, you should be.

Thanks. Wanted to post something similar but didn't see any point in it. Unfortunately this could be enough for the dimwits to provide cover for the failures in our county's response.