To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

The vaccine lowers the probability of contracting covid for everyone, particularly in nexus situations like schools.
Death from covid is only one of the results, so are long term complications.
Not everyone is being abusive. Old Goat is positively avuncular.
Calling out the unvaccinated as raising the likelihood of covid transmission is simple science.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

. It's who's insisting they should take it.

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because he said jack shit about who said what - he states facts and you still shit on him for that. Nice straw man though - I guess if you can’t beat facts make up an enemy 🤷🏻♂️

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

It's a good thing for you and your kids that you never leave that state and nobody from outside there ever travels there... especially during ski season. Good luck..

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Or during summer. Or any other season. It's Vacationland fir fucks sake. It says so on the license plates.

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Originally Posted by PB

What exactly do you consider the risks to be, and why won't they be addressed when emergency approval is given?

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This.

Get your kids vaccinated as soon as they are able to be.

Them being your progeny doesn't qualify you to make the decision whether it's worth the "risk" or to decide if there is a "risk"

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

The vaccine lowers the probability of contracting covid for everyone, particularly in nexus situations like schools.
Death from covid is only one of the results, so are long term complications.
Not everyone is being abusive. Old Goat is positively avuncular.
Calling out the unvaccinated as raising the likelihood of covid transmission is simple science.

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I had to look it up -

I did not find old goat's post "avuncular" ( though Many of his posts are ) -

to me, he came across as a crusty (old. as in experienced ) Surgeon - -
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.

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and I do not mean that badly -

there is wisdom in his Experience...


respectfully. skiJ

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

It's kinda apples and oranges to compare the totals of sick and dying kids to the full pandemic totals since January of 2020. The Delta is a whole different animal when it comes to sick and dying kids. Even if you disagree with that. Take a look at the total cancer deaths by age and you'll see that it's overwhelmingly very old people who die of cancer most. So does that mean we don't need to worry about kids getting cancer and if we had a vaccine that was a 95% effective guarantee they wouldn't die of cancer would you pass on it in the same situation tested safe in hundreds of millions of adults already? It's not the vaccine risks or the benefits that have these remaining people dragging their feet. It's who's insisting they should take it.

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Originally Posted by mtuhockey33

because he said jack shit about who said what - he states facts and you still shit on him for that. Nice straw man though - I guess if you can’t beat facts make up an enemy ����♂️

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False.. Biased data was addressed and debunked.

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

It's kinda apples and oranges to compare the totals of sick and dying kids to the full pandemic totals since January of 2020. The Delta is a whole different animal when it comes to sick and dying kids. Even if you disagree with that. Take a look at the total cancer deaths by age and you'll see that it's overwhelmingly very old people who die of cancer most. So does that mean we don't need to worry about kids getting cancer and if we had a vaccine that was a 95% effective guarantee they wouldn't die of cancer would you pass on it in the same situation tested safe in hundreds of millions of adults already? It's not the vaccine risks or the benefits that have these remaining people dragging their feet. It's who's insisting they should take it.

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Just looking for a study that says there Is more reward than risk for kids under 12 to take the vaccine. Here is one showing risk https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...suggests-study
The Pfizer trial is 2200 kids. The data doesn’t really show the vaccine is beneficial or not for under 12. Apparently you guys have a lot more trust in pharmaceutical companies than I do. It looks like next month on emergency use it should be available. I’m glad there are real patriots here that will put their kids first in line for it. Thank you

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Them being your progeny doesn't qualify you to make the decision whether it's worth the "risk" or to decide if there is a "risk"

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With all due respect, I don't think this sort of statement is appropriate.
Let the studies pan out and base some decision on that.

Them being your progeny doesn't qualify you to make the decision whether it's worth the "risk" or to decide if there is a "risk"[/QUOTE]

Stupidest thing I might have ever read on here. I believe it’s a parents job to decide if it’s worth the risk, nobody else

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

With all due respect, I don't think this sort of statement is appropriate.

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Originally Posted by teletech

I’m glad there are real patriots here that will put their kids first in line for it. Thank you

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It now seems we are getting to the parental "thinking" going on.

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Originally Posted by teletech

Stupidest thing I might have ever read on here. I believe it’s a parents job to decide if it’s worth the trisk, nobody else

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I can understand that your proclivities to telemark might raise some doubt as to your parenting skills.
But some of us can relate regarding the unbound terror that dealing with decisions that will impact the most important thing one has evar expeienced.

Your hesitancy is natural, but the health of your kids requires the best adherence to the data and studies once they come out.

Seeing as kids can’t really make their own decisions on the topic, and given just how dumb so many parents are on topics ranging from vaccinations to education to religion, I’d have to agree with PNW. Society has a dramatic interest in safeguarding these “decisions.”

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Seeing as kids can’t really make their own decisions on the topic, and given just how dumb so many parents are on topics ranging from vaccinations to education to religion, I’d have to agree with PNW. Society has a dramatic interest in safeguarding these “decisions.”

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This is exactly why we as a nation have laws, rules & regulations about how children can, cannot or must be treated and why the state can intervene in parental "decisions".

I'm not down with the authoritarianism or treating this particular concerned parent as dumb.

Give the poster some credit that they're looking for studies.
In all likelihood, the studies will show little risk for kids, but I can understand the concern.

I think jono articulated this type of risk well with regard to mandates for adults.

The funny thing is, I base the rights of parents, mothers in particular, to make such a decision regarding abortion. It is not the states right to dictate that decision.

It's our job to convince and cajole, not to abuse and berate those that are appealing for studies. Even if they tele.

Let the studies pan out and base some decision on that.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I'm not down with the authoritarianism

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When these kid vaccine trials do undoubtedly pass I'm totally down with your little darling doesn't get to go to school unless they're jabbed.

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

When these kid vaccine trials do undoubtedly pass I'm totally down with the most important things in your life don't get to go to school unless they're jabbed.

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fify and agree.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I'm not down with the authoritarianism or treating this particular concerned parent as dumb.

Give the poster some credit that they're looking for studies.
In all likelihood, the studies will show little risk for kids, but I can understand the concern.

I think jono articulated this type of risk well with regard to mandates for adults.

The funny thing is, I base the rights of parents, mothers in particular, to make such a decision regarding abortion. It is not the states right to dictate that decision.

It's our job to convince and cajole, not to abuse and berate those that are appealing for studies. Even if they tele.

Let the studies pan out and base some decision on that.

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We have a society full of people who think they understand things they don't who are listening to, believing and centering their whole identity around people telling them lies.

More studies won't help anyone they will just find ways to lie about those and make up misleading ones.

100% of people with severe reactions to the vaccine had a severe reaction!

PS i dont think people should be required to vaccinated their spawn, but spawn required to be vaccinated to go to school and participate in extracurricular activities.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

fify and agree.

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Altasnob says it illegal to alter my post.

I'm getting on the phone to Dan Samas first thing.

"The funny thing is, I base the rights of parents, mothers in particular, to make such a decision regarding abortion. It is not the states right to dictate that decision."

Describing pregnant women as mothers... that's a slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

The vaccine lowers the probability of contracting covid for everyone, particularly in nexus situations like schools.
Death from covid is only one of the results, so are long term complications.
Not everyone is being abusive. Old Goat is positively avuncular.
Calling out the unvaccinated as raising the likelihood of covid transmission is simple science.

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I learned a new word today. (Although uncles can be evil too--see Wicked Uncle Ernie

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Originally Posted by teletech

Just looking for a study that says there Is more reward than risk for kids under 12 to take the vaccine. Here is one showing risk https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...suggests-study
The Pfizer trial is 2200 kids. The data doesn’t really show the vaccine is beneficial or not for under 12. Apparently you guys have a lot more trust in pharmaceutical companies than I do. It looks like next month on emergency use it should be available. I’m glad there are real patriots here that will put their kids first in line for it. Thank you

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In the Guardian article there is a pertinent quote--"Their analysis of medical data suggests that boys aged 12 to 15, with no underlying medical conditions, are four to six times more likely to be diagnosed with vaccine-related myocarditis than ending up in hospital with Covid over a four-month period."
The risk of myocarditis is shortly after the vaccination. The risk of covid is for as long as the pandemic goes on so the overall risk of covid in the next 1-2 years and maybe longer will continue to rise. The great majority of these relatively rare cases (162/million) of myocarditis appear to recover without lasting effect. Finally, there is a different standard of risk for a drug used to treat a disease in an individual patient and a vaccine to prevent the transmission of a potentially lethal communicable disease. The risk/reward equation has to include the reward to the contacts of the individual. If I were a 55 year old teacher I would not be willing to teach a roomful of unvaccinated elementary school kids once vaccine was approved for their age.

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Stupidest thing I might have ever read on here. I believe it’s a parents job to decide if it’s worth the risk, nobody else

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I cannot disagree more strongly about parents' unquestioned rights to decide what's best for their children, given the number of kids who are abused and killed by their parents. More to the point, it has long been recognized by the courts and by society in general that parents' rights can be be overruled in the interest of the child--as an example Jehovah's Witness' children can be transfused against the parents' wishes and Christian Science children can be treated against parents' wishes. You do not own your children and they have rights independent of what you think is best for them. Society has a right too--the right to be protected from the results of bad parenting or isolated bad parental decisions.

In nearly all situations I would agree with you--if your child is ill and there is a potentially dangerous treatment with an uncertain benefit then the parents should make the call. In the case of covid vaccines though the call will be made by virologists and epidemiologists and ultimately by politicians on the state level--see the California mandate for the vaccination of school children. Of course if you are lucky enough to live in a place like Florida you probably won't have to worry about it.

I'm stunned by the number of people who can disentangle vaccine research but don't know what avuncular means.

Another argument for getting kids in school.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

I can understand that your proclivities to telemark might raise some doubt as to your parenting skills.
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Now you've gone too far, Sir!
I demand that you cease such prattle at once!

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Originally Posted by PNWbrit

I'm stunned by the number of people who can disentangle vaccine research but don't know what avuncular means.

Another argument for getting kids in school.

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They just dont want to cry uncle

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Originally Posted by Salvelinusconfluentus

PS i dont think people should be required to vaccinated their spawn, but spawn required to be vaccinated to go to school and participate in extracurricular activities.

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I waffle between this ostracization approach and a harder line that requires everyone without a legit medical excuse to just get the fucking vaccine already There is value in ripping off the bandage as fast as possible.

Just read this in a story about Dr. Fauci's recent TV appearances:

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Fauci dismissed attempts to blame immigrants and tourists as a major source of the spread of COVID in the U.S., a belief held by 37% of Americans overall and 55% of Republicans, according to a recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation.

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That's pretty incredible to me that people have lived through the entire trajectory of this pandemic and still think tourists and immigrants are a major source of the spread of COVID. I guess the desire to blame someone else is always strong.

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Originally Posted by skiJ

teletech -

the studies I might cite are months away -

they won't be about vaccination immunity in children under 12 -

they will be about the transmission of covid between generations. ... about

the potential for schoolchildren to transmit the virus and the disease to their grandparents...


I understand and I accept your concern - but ...


tj


postscript -

teletech -

I was going to add these comments almost immediately, but wanted to see what else was contributed to the discussion -

. . . I have confidence in the testing procedure in 2021 ;

the CDC has published nothing that I could find about Vaccination for those Under 12 ; the article you cited states that vaccination for children under 12 is weeks away...

Pfizer has submitted there Test data for more than 2,300 test participants
( your kids would Not be the first to receive a Pfizer product ) -

you appear to be new to this conversation ( though it is entirely possible you have been following it from the beginning; I am relatively new to this conversation, but the Science ( and vaccine technology has been addressed - repeatedly ) ;
I will repeat my earlier comment ( echoed by The old goat, sort of ) -
I cannot imagine either the Government (FDA) or Industry Not being extremely Careful with the covid vaccine for children ! !!
there is a follow-up comment that claims the Approval of the vaccine for children will Not be Emergency approval, but will include full testing and full study ( I don't know on what information that comment is based, but I believe it merits following ) --


to quote a classic line, from a cult classic,

" The skiing is the easy part "

I agree, the risk while skiing may be minimal - But depending on your proximity to your ski area, And all of the potential exposures associated with travel,
I am still making my peace with returning to ,,, busy environments ;

but I agree with you,
. . . the risk while skiing is probably the least of our worries -

I see your follow-up post about ultimately having your kids participate in Vaccination -
Thank you ! That's Great !
it is going to take everyone who is not determined to oppose this effort to successfully slow the spread of covid so that we can genuinely resume more nearly normal activities -

Thank you, teletech.


back to my vigil.

with due respect. tj

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Originally Posted by teletech

Just looking for a study that says there Is more reward than risk for kids under 12 to take the vaccine. Here is one showing risk https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...suggests-study
The Pfizer trial is 2200 kids. The data doesn’t really show the vaccine is beneficial or not for under 12. Apparently you guys have a lot more trust in pharmaceutical companies than I do. It looks like next month on emergency use it should be available. I’m glad there are real patriots here that will put their kids first in line for it. Thank you

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frustrating -

I am concerned by every article that refers to vaccination as ' (a) jab ' -

poking someone with your finger is 'a jab' ; administering a vaccination is Not a jab.

the information in the article summarizes data from at least two studies -
the rate of reported effects ranged from estimates of six per million, to ( 162.2) per million - an almost 27-fold Range
( I do not know how they make these claims -
to estimate '6 per million' one has to evaluate more than 160,000 vaccine recipients Under the age of 18 ( the article did not say when the UK data was collected, but did say teenagers in UK have been receiving the vaccine longer ) ;
to estimate '162 per million' one has to evaluate more than 6000 vaccine recipients Under the age of 18 between January 2021 and June 2021 ( huh ? ) --

to me, this is just statistical modeling.

also, the article said, " there was no follow-up on duration and severity of illness. " WHAT ! ? !

so someone was hospitalized, because they said their chest hurt, and their chart was coded as 'pericarditis' or 'myocarditis' and when their 'chest pain' passed, they were discharged.

ah. 162 per million. 0.000162 or 0.0162% - from a statistical model. And

6 per million. 0.000006 or 0.0006% ( Less than one in a thousand ), and

the ony study of covid reported 44 per million ( teenagers ). And

the studies say nothing about kids Under 12. Because the 'studies' ( I am very reluctant to call them that ) are of kids ages 12 - 18.

finally,
Please Remember, Vaccination is a program to control a disease throughout a society ( or, in the case of a "world-wide pandemic" for the human species ) ;

I appreciate your concern for your children - and there is a bigger picture.

there should not be a 27-fold variation in the claimed incidence of an effect
( the statistics do not make sense to me; nor do the clinical reports ( no follow-up - that is a data point, it is NOT a diagnosis ! )


I am sorry for a couple of responses to your posts -
an individual has returned to express support for your position, for whom many here are out of patience.

there is fatigue. there is weariness...

Please remember -
the pandemic is about More than individual immunity, and

Vaccination is a great tool ( both for the individual, and for controlling the spread of the disease ) !


Thank you for bringing your new perspective to this discussion.

respectfully. tj