To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[AK47bp]

Our policy is clear.. No vax card, no badge access to any company facilities.

We've got 3.5 boxes of the Abbott Binax tests at home. Wife bought one when she was exposed a month ago at work and we used one of them. I bought 3 more boxes thinking it was good to have around in case anyone was wondering but not wanting to go get in line for a formal test... Functional but no way to verify/validate the date or person the test was used on. Home tests are kinda like your probation officer just asking you to bring them a bottle of pee. It defeats the purpose of the test..

That’s easy enough for your company.

My company is in every US state and all Canadian provinces with most having no badge access offices. Hell my downtown Seattle office has no badge access.

Majority are remote as well.


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[old goat]

Restrictions, mandates, enforcement will continue to escalate until the pandemic seriously dies down. Too many Americans are pissed off at the holdouts that are holding the rest of us hostage. Travel restrictions within the US will be a big one. Vax or test to get on any intercity transport, then get rid of the test option. Individual states forbidding travel from poorly vaccinated states, quarantining returnees. We are way beyond the point of calm reasoning, respect for everyone's opinions, and patience. People are dying. There will still be holdouts of course, but they will be increasingly isolated from the rest of us.

[ticketchecker]

Restrictions, mandates, enforcement will continue to escalate until the pandemic seriously dies down. Too many Americans are pissed off at the holdouts that are holding the rest of us hostage. Travel restrictions within the US will be a big one. Vax or test to get on any intercity transport, then get rid of the test option. Individual states forbidding travel from poorly vaccinated states, quarantining returnees. We are way beyond the point of calm reasoning, respect for everyone's opinions, and patience. People are dying. There will still be holdouts of course, but they will be increasingly isolated from the rest of us.

I’m here for all of it


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[SumJongGuy]

That’s easy enough for your company.

My company is in every US state and all Canadian provinces with most having no badge access offices. Hell my downtown Seattle office has no badge access.

Majority are remote as well.


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We're global as well. I work for Cisco. Tricky part will be forcing vendors and customers to comply. Wondering what the temporary badge requirements and enforcement will be.

[AK47bp]

We're global as well. I work for Cisco. Tricky part will be forcing vendors and customers to comply. Wondering what the temporary badge requirements and enforcement will be.

It’s ridiculous.

Every office will need some kind of enforcer.


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[jono]

It’s ridiculous.

Every office will need some kind of enforcer.

And as IAS pointed out, every break room (and cube farm and zoom call) already has at least one. Unfortunately.

[SumJongGuy]

It’s ridiculous.

Every office will need some kind of enforcer.


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Our culture is pretty woke. The problem children were cast off or left when bathroom gender became optional 5 years ago. There's still some bellyaching but I feel confident that very few will try to enter common areas without masks. Anyone finds out that another has faked their vax and the snitching will be immediate and unanimous.

[old_newguy]

This creates an entire data collection and monitoring process that is, at best, challenging and expensive. Coupled with the “great resignation” it creates a significant burden overnight, depending on how the mandate is written. Outside of requiring a vax for continued employment like JongGuy’s workplace…. Which we can’t afford to do because goddamn if there isn’t a lot of crazy around here.

So many at higher turnover, service sector, mid-size businesses are already overworked and understaffed that adding this to the pile all but guarantees minimal compliance. Either OSHA invests enough resources to police it and hand out uniformly comprehensive harsh penalties (and things start to get really ugly and even more divisive out there), or it is largely ignored in areas with already low vaccination rates and barely moves the needle.

I agree with the intent behind the mandate, but like things like heath insurance, I’m annoyed that the burden is falling on the employer in this circumstance.

IME in the construction industry OSHA is a complaint based agency. They rarely show up unless a complaint has been filed or someone is seriously injured or dead. Insurance rates were driving safety programs, not OSHA.

The safety via OSHA burden has always fallen on the employer.

[AK47bp]

Our culture is pretty woke. The problem children were cast off or left when bathroom gender became optional 5 years ago. There's still some bellyaching but I feel confident that very few will try to enter common areas without masks. Anyone finds out that another has faked their vax and the snitching will be immediate and unanimous.

I’m not taking about mask enforcement.

Vaccine or negative test enforcement.

Someone in every location will have a list of who can be there and who can’t.


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[jono]

Restrictions, mandates, enforcement will continue to escalate until the pandemic seriously dies down. Too many Americans are pissed off at the holdouts that are holding the rest of us hostage. Travel restrictions within the US will be a big one. Vax or test to get on any intercity transport, then get rid of the test option. Individual states forbidding travel from poorly vaccinated states, quarantining returnees. We are way beyond the point of calm reasoning, respect for everyone's opinions, and patience. People are dying. There will still be holdouts of course, but they will be increasingly isolated from the rest of us.

I agree that will continue to be the trend (and we'll all suffer the costs of it) and I've said as much to management (far beyond my place). We are suffering from a lack of education, though, and appeal to authority won't fix that. Denial is powerful, both for the anti-vaxers and the people claiming to know how to convince them. Or denying that they need to be convinced, since that's all a mandate is: a more convincing argument via increased (and maybe artificially punitive) consequences. I guess if you've never smoked an illegal joint or exceeded a speed limit it might seem like people can be controlled by laws. People are controlled by social convention and fear of lost reputation. That's how Kool-aid gets drunk.

Ironically, I've found that to be one of the most compelling arguments so far: the strong don't stand up to laws, they stand up to peer pressure. The people trying to control you aren't politicians--those people are weak and take their direction from the people because they fear the fickle will of the electorate. The people trying to exert control are the alphas in the breakroom. So quit being a cuck, grow a pair and get a shot. It works almost 1% of the time. It causes great mental strain almost every time, though.

[Mazderati]

Denial is powerful, both for the anti-vaxers and the people claiming to know how to convince them. Or denying that they need to be convinced, since that's all a mandate is: a more convincing argument via increased (and maybe artificially punitive) consequences. I guess if you've never smoked an illegal joint or exceeded a speed limit it might seem like people can be controlled by laws.

What a ridiculous argument. "Someone is going to break the law so the law is useless." Bring your marshmallows while pontificating by the fire.

[SumJongGuy]

I’m not taking about mask enforcement.

Vaccine or negative test enforcement.

Someone in every location will have a list of who can be there and who can’t.


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Ya the badges help there...We're uploading the vax card images, brand, date, lot numbers to WorkDay and they'll link that to the badge access/no access data. And if anybody finds out someone has faked their vaccine card you can bet they won't hesitate to share that with everyone else because we all want it safe in there.

[mcski]

I’m not taking about mask enforcement.

Vaccine or negative test enforcement.

Someone in every location will have a list of who can be there and who can’t.


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If their offices are all badged entry, hr can simply require proof of vax be submitted and turn off badges until that is done.

[teletech]

I’m definitely waiting to get my kids 5 and 7 vaccinated once emergency approval in reached. There has been a total of 1 person under 20 that has died in my state (Maine) of covid. Nobody in the 5-11 age group. A mRNA vaccine has never been used for children of that age. I haven’t seen a compelling article that shows that the benefits of the vaccine far out ways the risk in the 5-11 age group. If anybody has a good study that shows the reward far out ways the risks lets see them. Here’s a link to a NYT article, doesn’t really push the needle either way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...ccine.amp.html

[SumJongGuy]

I’m definitely waiting to get my kids 5 and 7 vaccinated once emergency approval in reached. There has been a total of 1 person under 20 that has died in my state (Maine) of covid. Nobody in the 5-11 age group. A mRNA vaccine has never been used for children of that age. I haven’t seen a compelling article that shows that the benefits of the vaccine far out ways the risk in the 5-11 age group. If anybody has a good study that shows the reward far out ways the risks lets see them. Here’s a link to a NYT article, doesn’t really push the needle either way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...ccine.amp.html

It's a good thing for you and your kids that you never leave that state and nobody from outside there ever travels there... especially during ski season. Good luck..

[AK47bp]

If their offices are all badged entry, hr can simply require proof of vax be submitted and turn off badges until that is done.

They aren’t.


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[jono]

What a ridiculous argument. "Someone is going to break the law so the law is useless." Bring your marshmallows while pontificating by the fire.

Have you built a strawman to hold up the false dichotomy or are you just pushing your own false dichotomy? That would certainly be a ridiculous argument, though, I'll give you that.

[teletech]

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisiona...-Age/9bhg-hcku
According to cdc there has been 478 deaths out 74,000,000 of under 18. No data for how many under 12. I’m not saying my kids won’t get the vaccine, they just won’t be first in line. I’m also not worried about my kids getting covid skiing.

[Mazderati]

Have you built a strawman to hold up the false dichotomy or are you just pushing your own false dichotomy? That would certainly be a ridiculous argument, though, I'll give you that.

The false dichotomy is yours. The suggestion laws cannot and do not control people is asinine.

I guess if you've never smoked an illegal joint or exceeded a speed limit it might seem like people can be controlled by laws.

[PB]

I’m definitely waiting to get my kids 5 and 7 vaccinated once emergency approval in reached. There has been a total of 1 person under 20 that has died in my state (Maine) of covid. Nobody in the 5-11 age group. A mRNA vaccine has never been used for children of that age. I haven’t seen a compelling article that shows that the benefits of the vaccine far out ways the risk in the 5-11 age group. If anybody has a good study that shows the reward far out ways the risks lets see them. Here’s a link to a NYT article, doesn’t really push the needle either way.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...ccine.amp.html

What exactly do you consider the risks to be, and why won't they be addressed when emergency approval is given?

[skiJ]

teletech -

the studies I might cite are months away -

they won't be about vaccination immunity in children under 12 -

they will be about the transmission of covid between generations. ... about

the potential for schoolchildren to transmit the virus and the disease to their grandparents...


I understand and I accept your concern - but

clearly understand the efficacy and the margin of Safety your require to participate in vaccination for your kids
( respectfully, if your kids are going to school, they do not live in a bubble -

Things look pretty Good in New England right now, high vaccination rates are appreciated - But

Part of that is the incidence of covid in 2020 - at least in the gateway states to NE )


I would be glad If no one under the age of twelve ever posed a Risk with covid - either to themselves or others ;

up-thread, you can find anecdotal reports of other complications for kids associated with covid - mostly social / societal ;
Those are real, too - while I personally believe kids are remarkably resilient - I also know they may internalize the anxieties of their elders. it is a variable line.

in my home region, which receives a lot of Summer visitors ( reportedly 600,000 this Summer, in a county of 6,000 ) , cases of covid have quadrupled ( 4x ) since the Start of the school year.


I understand your concern, and I respect your concern for your kids -

they can be part of the solution to decreasing the spread of covid.

( I tried to read the NYT article - and got to the sentence about vaccine for children still being weeks away before the paywall shut me down
( please see my earlier comments about Safety and,,, ( efficacy(?) - something else... ) of vaccine for children. ) )


finally, I am going to close with, ,,, a personal plea -
technology evolves - upthread, you can find the stories of the development of mRNA technology and techniques over the last twenty years and forty years...

When is the last time we developed a childrens' vaccine for a pandemic (?) ( genuine question. ( I am not a student of the history of human immunology ) )

to me, this whole 'it's not a vaccine' argument is a proverbial Trojan Horse. to deny modern technology, is from my perspective akin to saying we should go back to the horse for transportation...

no. it's 2021 --

so. Please know what your requirement for Safety will be ( six months (?), a million other children (?) ) Because children can be part of the solution to covid - or / and they can be part of the spread of the disease.

I do respect your concern -
nothing has been approved for children - emergency or otherwise.


Please
. . . breathe Deep.
with love.


tj


postscript -

teletech -

I was going to add these comments almost immediately, but wanted to see what else was contributed to the discussion -

. . . I have confidence in the testing procedure in 2021 ;

the CDC has published nothing that I could find about Vaccination for those Under 12 ; the article you cited states that vaccination for children under 12 is weeks away...

Pfizer has submitted their Test data for more than 2,500 test participants
( your kids would Not be the first to receive a Pfizer product ) -

you appear to be new to this conversation ( though it is entirely possible you have been following it from the beginning; I am relatively new to this conversation, but the Science ( and vaccine technology has been addressed - repeatedly ) ;
I will repeat my earlier comment ( echoed by The old goat, sort of ) -
I cannot imagine either the Government (FDA) or Industry Not being extremely Careful with the covid vaccine for children ! !!
there is a follow-up comment that claims the Approval of the vaccine for children will Not be Emergency approval, but will include full testing and full study ( I don't know on what information that comment is based, but I believe it merits following ) --


to quote a classic line, from a cult classic,

" The skiing is the easy part "

I agree, the risk while skiing may be minimal - But depending on your proximity to your ski area, And all of the potential exposures associated with travel,
I am still making my peace with returning to ,,, busy environments ;

but I agree with you,
. . . the risk while skiing is probably the least of our worries -

I see your follow-up post about ultimately having your kids participate in Vaccination -
Thank you ! That's Great !
it is going to take everyone who is not determined to oppose this effort to successfully slow the spread of covid so that we can genuinely resume more nearly normal activities -

Thank you, teletech.


back to my vigil.

with due respect. tj

[old goat]

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisiona...-Age/9bhg-hcku
According to cdc there has been 478 deaths out 74,000,000 of under 18. No data for how many under 12. I’m not saying my kids won’t get the vaccine, they just won’t be first in line. I’m also not worried about my kids getting covid skiing.

If controlling the spread of the virus--especially to the teacher-- doesn't concern you consider this. If a kid tests positive all the kids go back to remote learning for a couple of weeks. Given all the arguments that have been made about the harm remote learning does I would think that would concern you. Especially if it means you have to stay home from work with them.

Or consider that the first polio vaccine trial was done exclusively in kids.

Or that the great majority of vaccines are given to children.

Or that clinical trials in under 12's were not started until 100's of millions of older people had received the vaccine. The trials have been going on for 6 months and while Pfizer has submitted data it seems it will be months longer before there is FDA approval. (My guess is that they will seek full approval, not emergency authorization.)

Or that prior to Covid mRNA vaccines haven't been used in adults either but they have proven to be very safe--certainly safer than the early polio vaccine.

Or that, because the US lacks any public health infrastructure to deal with adults on a population basis, the best chance we have of eventually controlling covid is to make vaccination required to go to school--that is the only way we have controlled measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, I could go on and on.

Or that if we vaccinate all the kids they can probably stop wearing masks,

Are those enough reasons for you?

[bodywhomper]

Fwiw, and not to conflate your great points, many school districts are not set up for remote learning. So a kid gets covid or is quarantined because of a close contact, they may receive nothing but worksheets to complete while at home.

Also, re:kids… long covid is still a real possibility even with minimal (or no) disease when initially infected.

[mtuhockey33]

If controlling the spread of the virus--especially to the teacher-- doesn't concern you consider this. If a kid tests positive all the kids go back to remote learning for a couple of weeks. Given all the arguments that have been made about the harm remote learning does I would think that would concern you. Especially if it means you have to stay home from work with them.

Or consider that the first polio vaccine trial was done exclusively in kids.

Or that the great majority of vaccines are given to children.

Or that clinical trials in under 12's were not started until 100's of millions of older people had received the vaccine. The trials have been going on for 6 months and while Pfizer has submitted data it seems it will be months longer before there is FDA approval. (My guess is that they will seek full approval, not emergency authorization.)

Or that prior to Covid mRNA vaccines haven't been used in adults either but they have proven to be very safe--certainly safer than the early polio vaccine.

Or that, because the US lacks any public health infrastructure to deal with adults on a population basis, the best chance we have of eventually controlling covid is to make vaccination required to go to school--that is the only way we have controlled measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, I could go on and on.

Or that if we vaccinate all the kids they can probably stop wearing masks,

Are those enough reasons for you?

you seem to think that only his kids are the ones who could get covid. You realize that even vaccinated individuals could also get Covid and test positive and they could be the reason for the school to go back to remote learning?

this guy has a legitimate reason (if you seriously cannot see this, you’re obtuse) to not want his kids to get this vaccine and all anyone here has done is shit on the guy.

if everyone (teacher, grandparents, public) all are vaccinated, they shouldn’t worry about Covid as the vaccine is your guys end all, be all, save everyone miracle shot. The fact you only pick on the people who are hesitant is laughable. But continue on denying his clear evidence that his kids are pretty fucking safe from Covid based on where he’s located. Plus - if those tourists coming in are all vaccinated / proof of negative test - where is this Covid coming from? Does it just magically appear in unvaccinated individuals?? He has no reason to worry and y’all are freaking out like it’s the end of the world.

[SumJongGuy]

It's kinda apples and oranges to compare the totals of sick and dying kids to the full pandemic totals since January of 2020. The Delta is a whole different animal when it comes to sick and dying kids. Even if you disagree with that. Take a look at the total cancer deaths by age and you'll see that it's overwhelmingly very old people who die of cancer most. So does that mean we don't need to worry about kids getting cancer and if we had a vaccine that was a 95% effective guarantee they wouldn't die of cancer would you pass on it in the same situation tested safe in hundreds of millions of adults already? It's not the vaccine risks or the benefits that have these remaining people dragging their feet. It's who's insisting they should take it.