Seems a lot like supply chain headaches that are getting passed onto the customer.
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Seems a lot like supply chain headaches that are getting passed onto the customer.
Are the new Renegades waaay softer than first heavy generation(crow/owl) at least hand flex?
Hmm, seems like a bad business model and I'd have hoped they'd learned from their past mistakes to avoid this. I will say, to their credit, it seems like they are trying to get ahead of the curve this time and tell consumers directly prior to delivery, rather than hoping nobody notices.Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleLanTheman
Wondering if they'll chime in on this thread. Was cool to see them interact with us (the forum) directly last time there was an issue with a pair of Renegades.
Thoughts 4FRNT?
Im pretty bummed out. Whilst it's sweet they've come clean the timing is pretty poor. Im kind if caught short because I need skis, I'm tempted to buy something else and have it as a back up and return one of them. Hopefully not the 4frnt because I was stoked to go back to them, I even bought a branded hat.
Anyone reached out to them?
Anything to be gained from inviting them in here?
Nobody should be bummed...yet.
They have a guarantee.
Mount them.
Ski them.
Return them for a full refund if they aren't what you wanted.
Sometimes a ski is more than the sum of its parts. Sometimes. When they are, like the EHP and the Renegade, you hoard them. That's right hoard.
Go give the new Renegades a serious shot. Leave an honest review here. It'll be good information for the mags and for the future of 4frnt.
sorry for the thread drift but your username is amazingQuote:
Originally Posted by phallic-menace
At 220 lbs and 6'1", my first concession was still ordering the ski with no 196 cm size. Now, the 15% softer flex.
Screw me. I've planned so much around the delivery of a good product... Even ordered the new Raven to complement the Ren.
2 sets of CAST Freetour bindings coming mid December for the Raven and Ren.
First year with Matt gone, and they fuck up production. Damnit.
What he ^^^ said.Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
I've read all the renegades threads... and couldn't find an answer....
I've got owls 196. Best ski lines ever on those skis. But definitely love and hate relationship. Love them on steep pow lines. Hate them on chopped up bumps. Hate when they nose dive on low angle pow. End up reverting to high speed wheelies to avoid the nose dive on low angle pow. Let's face it: these are the best steep pow skis ever for going mach looney, tubing oneself in snow slarve heaven, and making everyone else jealous as f#$! But I'm not that big of a guy and get hammered the rest of the time on them.
I've wished for less swing weight, 191cm length, and less nose dive when skiing more moderate speeds/lower angles.
Any comparisons on the 2018 196cm vs owls? (Bit of thread drift here i know, but contemplating demoing a pair of the new 191cm next time i drive up to slc and would like to know how the 2018s ski before trying the 2019s.)
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I hear what you say on the 196 owls. They're too much ski at Alta. Great at the bird for the first 2 hours on a pow day. I generally ski a long stiff skis. But the 186 Ren is my ideal resort pow ski. Even for big guys I think it would work great. 196 would be great in AK but on anything less than 35 degrees they suffer and bumps are damn near suicidal. 4frnt is no longer in slc and from what I can tell us impossible to demo them now. I've been a huge 4frnt fan. But this new news about the renegade really bums me out. Best thing about 4frnt is that they develop a good ski and don't ruin or discontinue it. Like the majority of companies do. Really bummed that they've fucked with the best pow ski ever. Hopefully they rectify and bring back the og Ren. I love the ones with hals construction. And if they bring back the ehp to I'll promise never to buy skis from another company again.
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So spend 50$ to mount. Ski them a couple times , then pay yo ship them back get a different pair pay another 50$ to mount. And maybe have a pair you like by spring.Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
Sounds like they are going to stiffen them up. Keeping the same thinner base and edge, but working on the core.
The Hoji is now stiffer then the renegade!
#Mountyourownskis
But it does seem like a mistake. They've been marketing thick bases and edges ever since the old Line days.
Maybe this is the year to scoop up the really touring oriented version, before they fix them.
Yeah, this is the non-financial burden not being recognized by 4FRNT, or perhaps why their return policy isn't industry-standard. We spend our year prepping for moments. We can't get those moments back. I live in Japan and if I don't have my gear dialed for Jan/Feb then I will fail to deliver on the previous 10 months worth of dreaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by powderslave
And then I'm sitting at the dinner table across from my family trying to justify our lifestyle. It's kind of like blowing your knee but having insurance to pay the bill.
"Good thing we're not broke!"
"Right." (I don't know why I'm living anymore, but okay.)
I think it's an awesome return policy! Should be standard. And in return perhaps we should all swallow our own selfish pill that skiers (and surfers) are some of the most selfish people on the planet.
"This is my moment!"
If only we could get them to turn back time. Then I'd definitely buy their product.
My thoughts since I woke up to early this morning
Hoji is a designer now and not a manufacturer (not overseeing process and QC) - previous builds in white room then elan
Hoji is not on social media so we will not hear form him (maybe someone else at 4frnt will step up - hint hint)
This was a last second change in renegade production or it would have been brought up way sooner
Therefore either 4frnt screwed up on order or Utopie screwed up product manufacturing
Either way its unfortunate since 191 Renegade seemed like a great balance between 186 tree killer and 196 AK killer
Bottom line, if there is anything I've learned being on TGR this many years is
"Transparency goes along way"
Yah you may get hammered for building a bad product that people waited a long time to ski
but at least you wont get blacklisted for trying to pawn off a bad product you knew had problems
The email from 4Frnt did not seem like full disclosure
A last minute change we did not know about vs oh crap we just QC'd first pairs and Houston we have a problem!
For those that have ski’d the Rens previously, would anyone welcome a 15% softer flex?
Do we know if the Hoji and Raven are getting these same thin base & edges? I would assume so.
Those are still built at Elan I believe so, a different factory.Quote:
Originally Posted by robnow
Edit: the HOJI at least. Raven is probably built in Can now.
I just won't buy them. I've got 2 unmounted og rens in the closet. When I heard about the change I bought 2 backups.Quote:
Originally Posted by powderslave
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
No. Why mess with perfection. They might float a little more. But the best thing about the Ren that totally sets it apart is that it's like a light Saber through pow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
Anyone having the issue with their Rens getting ‘flat’ anymore? My 2015 isn’t, this gen, pretty sure last layup pre vibevail and thus pre-lightening:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwZJ...&persist_app=1
What is this "paying to mount" you speak of? ... I've never heard of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by powderslave
#mountyourownfuckingskis
But I get your point, and you're right. I agree and also think this is a fuckup on 4frnt's part. They should be more transparent and provide more info about it. Glad they didn't pull some shady shit and send it out without telling anyone. And it's good they have the return policy that they do.
I used to be a hudge fan of 4frnt. 4frnt is all I own (8 pairs currently in my quiver) with the exception of a pair of Movement Goliaths (very similar to an EHP actually, but a little more turny/carvy for groomed GS/superG funtimes) and a pair of Voile UltraVector BC (for a randotouring setup).
That's why when I find a ski I like, I hoard and get backups.
Mounted these last winter, last of my new 193s, but also have 2 x 186 ehp's and 2x 186 Renegades.
The ski industry changes shit just to change it. When you find a ski you like...Hoard them.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3d5355e1c0.jpg
I agree with all of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by whyturn
But I'm glad that 4frnt has the return policy they do.
Eric is on Instagram. ... @hojboss ... Far be it for me to tell Eric what to do, but I think thehojimonster would have been a primo insta name.
If it was Praxis, ON3P, Lithic, Cody/Alka, Moment, etc. they likely would have come on here already to explain what was up. 4frnt used to do that too, back in the day.
But this is the new 4frnt under new management (JLev, JSkis, Line). Let that guide your future purchases.
I really hope they turn it around, but I'm not holding my breath, as I explained in the "Why is 4frnt Blowing It?" thread last year.
#mountyourownfuckingskis
Same. The EHP and the designs that followed are and seem to forever be the foundation of my quiver and ‘ski style.’ I’ve owned both length EHPs (kept 186 and sold 193 cuz east coast), 196 Rens, both 84 and 94 length Devs and now 187 Hojis. 181 Switchblades are cooked. Have access to Cody/Gauchos and YLEs. Into all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
Yup. Also have 184 Devs and 189 Turbos for messing around the mountain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
There are moments, sometimes years, where a company just gets it. They're ahead of the game. They do it for the love and for skiers. 4frnt was such a company for almost a decade. Wasn't profitable, but damn, they just got it. I'm so glad and feel fortunate to have participated and raved about them during that era. It's a different company now, under new management and has a different direction. Hope it works out for them, but their current direction isn't aligned with what I want in skis or in a ski company. Meanwhile, I'll ski my quiver of absolute gems, and I'll be at the forefront of looking for the next 4frnt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
I’ve never mounted skis before, I have heard of people using paper jigs. But knowing me I’d fuck it up.
I find it very odd that they would pull this last minute. Was this change intended. Are these the version Hoji skis on. Maybe they didn’t think the lighter base and edge would reflect on the stiffness. Not giving answers and trying to wash this over is pathetic. Obvious they know they screwed up, because they already decided to stiffen the ski before any feed back from the customers.
What they need to do is put those defective ski’s for sale on the Sterbenz’s Stash page, and deliver on the stiffer Renegades.
It's not rocket dentistry. Take your time, have a couple of beers, practice a couple of times on a 2x4, and you'll see how easy it actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by powderslave
100% agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by powderslave
100% agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South
.
.
.
Hopefully JLev can turn this around, and keep making (or reintroduce/reissue) the ski's we all loved.
But he's got his own program, and it's his company, so I'm not holding my breath.
Given what we've heard here, I think this new Renegade will be very popular with, and accessable to, the intermediate/advanced skiier, blue to black runs, who wants an all mountain ski that will ski meadow skippy powder and tight trees at lower speeds. It'll make them feel like a rockstar.
From what I can gather from the numbers, this new Ren will ski somewhere between the old K2 ObSethed and the OG K2 Hellbent, but with a bigger turning radius than those enabling looser slarvey washed out turns when compared to the ObSethed and Hellbent (just as reference because someone was talking about the ski review site liking K2 so much) ........... If it's really good, it might even ski like an Elan Boomerang with a bigger radius. Not such a bad idea. In fact, if it does ski like an Elan Boomerang with a bigger radius, I'll probably buy a pair (although according to the flex test, the Boomerang 45555 is stiffer than this new Ren 44434). Those are all really great, fun, and very popular skis for 90% of the skiers out there, but IMHO that's not the Renegade. Not the spirit of the Renegade.
But the bottom Line is, it's not up to me or you. It's not my decision. It's JLevs company and Eric's ski so they can do whatever the fuck they want. Eric is the OG Renegade, he's earned the right to do or design whatever he wants.
I'd be very happy if they both prove me wrong on all accounts.
But if this was a last minute decision, maybe these skis as they are were not even tested on snow yet. Only 4frnt knows. And trying to get answers from them is slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by reckless toboggan
I see there are more pairs of the 184 Cm on The website.
Is that people returning them.
As much as I love me some good sciendentistrical discussion, I am looking forward to hearing from the powers that be at 4frnt.
Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Self Jupiter
Reading this thread was like having your grandpa explain santa claus is not real for a long drawn out 30 minutes, and then he has to explain how the presents end up under you tree..
Luckily I stocked up on Pilsner hojis, white red hojis, and green black 16? Ren's.
I will be at the free ride camp at GAH with HOJI in a couple weeks and ask him about it for you all ...
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What?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMTN19
You take that back!
[emoji24]
LEAVE SANTA ALONE!
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ALONE!_gif.gif
Sorry it took us a while to answer, insanely busy black fri - Christmas.
WHAT HAPPENED:
Hoji wanted to re-design the ski shape, and slightly adjust the flex for his Renegade this year. Throughout winter we sent him prototoypes and built the final variations and tested them at Mount Hood this summer (see story here). These are being built at the Utopie factory located in Rimouski Quebec. Same place that's built thousands of J skis, Rome snowboards and many other ski and snowboard brands so very reliable and consistent. The results of the final Mount Hood test were extremely positive from Matt Sterbenz, Hoji, Thayne, and the rest of us at Hood. Everyone agreed there was a huge improvement in ski finish, and overall feel. Eric choose the final flex and we all agreed it was best, which also happened to be slightly softer than years past, sorry I don't have exact % but it was slightly different and definitely a better ski and honestly Hoji had the final say. After the test, an idea came to the surface that if we changed to a standard base and edge thickness (previously extra thick) we could reduce weight. Knowing the thinner edge and base is actually industry standard in this category of skis, Matt Sterbenz, Eric and I all thought it was a smart decision to reduce and gave the green light to the factory. Being it was already July, we were in a bit of a rush to get these built and I overlooked the effect a different edge thickness and based thickness has on a ski's flex. It was completely my fault for not considering this, I have enough experience where I should have immediately requested another set of samples to confirm before production.
Fast forward to today, what's built is built and there is no time to build more with a different flex for this winter season. We will instead spend this winter adjusting the flex for Eric to test and confirm. We will do this by simply adjusting only the thickness of the core profile. This is always the simplest way to adjust only the flex pattern and has very little effect on the weight or feel. 0.5mm wood core thickness can make a huge difference in flex and no noticeable effect on weight or feel. For next season we will bring the flex back to what was intended with Hoji's blessing and triple check flex prior to production.
HOW THE SKIS WILL PERFORM:
It's a softer overall flex than intended by approximately 15%. Wether you will love it, or hate it, can only be determined by riding it... just like any other ski. Remember, everything is relative and perception is 100% based on each person's ability and past experience and current skis. With many skiers never trying this ski with a different flex, it's impossibly for them to truly know how it will effect performance in what way, let alone how it feel for other skiers. Although to date on this forum we've all seen very strong opinions, they've all been based only on hearsay and speculation. There's only one way to know how a ski rides... and that is to ski it yourself.
IF YOU ALREADY PURCHASED THEM:
At this point they are sold out and we've already informed all of our customers by email as soon as we noticed the different flex. With all of our 4FRNT products we offer a 100% Money Back Guarantee. If for any reason after a few days of riding any of our skis you don't feel it's right for you. You can return them for a full refund or swap them out for a different size or model.
Thanks again to everyone here for caring so much about our brand and products. It's truly inspiring for all of us working so hard to do the right thing to hear the passion you have 4FRNT's place in skiing. We will continue to do everything possible to come through for you. Please keep sharing your suggestions and perspectives! Contact us anytime live chat at 4frnt.com, text or call us (801) 975-9500 with thoughts, questions or to just talk about skiing. Again my personal email is jason@4frnt.com hit me up anytime to remind me to get my ass on here to talk. THANKS!
This is phenomenal. Thank you for this response.Quote:
Originally Posted by JLev
Bit the financial bullet and ordered the Praxis Protest UL Core at 192 with a (4) flex to replace the bastard Renegade of this year.
JLev, you fucked up the Renegade this year. Thanks for admitting that. I've only been skiing 2 years, this is my third, and I KNOW that changing base and edges would change ski characteristics... and don't even work in the ski industry.
You allude to people who have not ski'd the ski previously really wouldn't be able to tell a difference from the previous years... well, people aren't buying the Renegade, because they've ski'd or demo'd your skis (lack of availability of 4FRNT demo's is an issue). They are buying your skis based on numerous reviews/comments from Blister, 4FRNT website, and here. What can definitely be extrapolated is that if the ski were magically 15% softer prior to all the reviews, the reviews would have been DIFFERENT! So, the impression of the Ren's characteristics in the minds of buyers would also be different, and that may have lead to buyers looking elsewhere.
We know what we are looking for, and we do our best to research products. So, don't go saying that we shouldn't be concerned over a 15% softer flex if we have not ski'd the Ren previously. For a big mountain torpedo that the Ren was of previous productions, 15% is a huge deal... especially for bigger skiers... especially for backcountry trips when one is skiing with a pack.
Thank you for the honesty. Personally at this point, I feel a breakup occurring with 4FRNT. I think its time to see other people.
Good to have some additional info to make some decisions. Really glad JLev posted up.
Can't wait to hear the reviews once they start pouring in here.
I personally think a 15% softer Ren shouldn’t be terrible for those wanting to ski pure pow... ironic that the hiccup occurred after all the promotion for the Hoji movie. But can we talk about how the graphics on the new ski are pretty blahhh ;)
Think about this: no 196 cm size + 15% softer flex will change a ski dramatically. Just cancelled my Ren 190 cm order. Order up for who ever wants a Bastard Renegade.Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPERIOR