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I seem to recall that bin Laden was trained by the CIA and perhaps other US agencies. In any case, I'm certain that he received direct support.Quote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
This is a bit inaccurate in that the U.S. never directly supported bin Laden--he was associated with the mujehadin we were supporting.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
I think there are many in that crowd who would disagree with you though, and why should your belief in non-violence trump their right to remain alive?
I believe absolutely that if the only way to stop a murderer is to kill him, it is morally just and even required to do so.
That is what Israel's policy, and indeed all self-defense, is based on.
Dex - really you're reading more into my posts than I write.
All I am saying is that I, myself, would not kill that person. That is all. If I KNEW he were there I would yell and shout for ppl to clear the area and point the authorities to him.
Though I might tell others I don't believe in an eye for an eye, ultimately they have to live their lives just as I have to live mine.
I never said my beliefs trump anyone else’s.
BTW - there are other ways to protect ppl besides taking out the suicide bomber. I know of a bus driver in Israel that stopped a bomber from blowing up his bus without killing him. It can be done.
Why are you so concerned with my path of non-violence?
No Dex - in this you are wrong. We made Bin Laden who his is today.Quote:
Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
This is a bit inaccurate in that the U.S. never directly supported bin Laden--he was associated with the mujehadin we were supporting.
I don't think the U.S. was supporting Afghan attacks on Soviet civilians though, regardless of the label the USSR applied to the fighters.
Al Qaeda and bin Laden are now using considerably different tactics than what the Afghans used against the invading Soviet military.
And I never said anything about Soviet civilians.
Come on Dex - stop this - tactics change, evolve, morph but that does not mean they did not have a common breeding ground.
edit: to include a '/' I forgot.
Quote:
Originally posted by KQ
No Dex - in this you are wrong. We made Bin Laden who his is today.
False. I don't know where this started, but it's based on misinformation. There's no way anyone can reasonably claim we 'made' bin Laden who he is. That's like saying Islam made him who he is.
Quote:
And I never said anything about Soviet civilians.
I know, but for the parallel you drew to be true there would have to have been attacks on Soviet civilians in Russia, just like the attacks in Israel.
This is true and shows again that the U.S. usually has too narrow a perspective, but simply supporting a group that someone is a member of does not make the U.S. responsible for what he later does. It's not as if bin Laden has relied on U.S. tactics, support, or material for his attacks (well, some stolen aircraft, but...).Quote:
Come on Dex - stop this - tactics change, evolve, morph but that does not mean they did not have a common breeding ground.
Dex twists words, miscontstrues your statements and argues for the sake of it. Don't waste your time on him. He's an idiot.
From an AP story:
During the 1980s, the United States supported several ragtag rebel groups eager to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Americans provided funds and arms, including Stinger surface-to-air missiles.
"Bin Laden was just emerging as a leader, but he was already an Islamic idealist, clearly with no love for the West," Lacoste said in an interview, one of several with veterans of that period who sketch a similar picture.
Although bin Laden insists he never took any CIA funds directly, he was heavily funded by Saudi interests and received American logistical and political support, Lacoste said.
U.S. officials at the time say aid was given first under President Carter and then under President Reagan. Reagan once praised the Afghans and Arab guerrillas who helped them as "freedom fighters."
Herman Cohen, who in the 1980s was deputy assistant secretary of state for intelligence and then on the National Security Council, said aid was channeled through Pakistan and given to groups selected by Pakistanis.
"We didn't understand at that point what was happening," Cohen said. "I don't think any analyst back then thought these were bad guys in Afghanistan. We were thinking about the Cold War and the Reagan Doctrine."
Some of the Pakistanis involved were themselves Islamic fundamentalists, he added. Cohen is now a private consultant in African affairs.
Ed Girardet, a writer and humanitarian aid specialist who has covered Afghanistan since 1980, first met bin Laden a decade ago when the wealthy Saudi set up camps where combat-hardened Afghans trained Arab fighters.
"He was always after some purist Islamic state which exists nowhere in the world," Girardet said. "He had a deep hatred of anything from the West. Unlike the Afghans, his radical Arab followers wouldn't even shake your hand."
Bin Laden made ample use of the American equipment lavished on rebel groups during the Soviet resistance, he said. When Moscow retreated in 1989, CIA operatives departed, leaving splintered factions to fight for supremacy.
"The United States really blew it," Girardet said. "They dropped Afghanistan like a hot potato."
Bin Laden was lionized when he returned to Saudi Arabia but soon ran afoul of the kingdom's ruling family. He moved to Sudan, building up his organization, and then to Afghanistan when the Taliban Islamic militia took power in 1996.
There is an article in the New Yorker that came out last year. The writer's name is Goldberg. There are numerous account of how little the outside fighters from other arab lands(which would stand to reason with their historic lack of success warring elsewhere) helped the Afghans. We provided advisors and gave them SAM's. We left after that. Their ultimate goal was not terrorizing an innocent citizenry, it was defending their country from the USSR.
very different from the Reuter's "freedom fighters".
Hiroshima, Nagasaki, umm, fire bombing of Drezden - 80,000 civilians dead in one night, fire bombing of Tokyo - 100,000 civilians dead in one night, umm, Drezden specifically didn't have a single military target to speak of. Not that the germans didn't deserve it, but targeting civilians has been a legitimate practice in a shitload of wars and USA alone can claim civilian bodycount near 1 mil in WW2 alone. 2 wrong don't make a right, but to claim that one side has more scruples then the other is retarded.
Palestinian land was taken from them, mostly by force, their beef is legit. Israel has the same rights to exist as every other country. If the Palestinians had all the toys I'm sure they wouldn't act any better. truth is right, the Middle East can't be fixed. Columbus stumbled his way around the world to get to India rather then go through the Middles East and deal with those people. Everybody is fucked, and I have no point. Later.
Truth is right on target with this one...you can piss in your neighbors shoes all you want as long as you don't mind having him shit in your posies. Unfortunately the pissers and shitters take umbrage to each others release of bodily waste. Furthermore, they large reserves in their bowels and bladders.
Level the sandbox.
Is it our fight? No. But with our nation's history of perpetuating manifest destiny, we'll be mired in it forever.
Large deposites of prozac in either sides aquifers might help quell the angst in the long run.
Equalizing the playing fields by providing weapons of equal destructive qualities to aggresive third-world regimes? Great idea...has worked all over the middle east in the last 30-years.:rolleyes:
Ship a few thousand tons of dynamite to the oganizations who perpetuate the suicide bombings might nip a few suicide attacks in the bud...its far less stable than TNT.
not reading any posts and never posting in the thread again but the problem with the Palestinans and Israelis is a simple question of math as Tom Friedman put it If lets say you have 10 Terrorists/Freedom fighters
The israelis think if they kill 2 terroists then there are 2 less terrorists who can attack them so therefore 10-2=8
The palestinians think if they send 2 freedom fighters who will give their lives to avenge the israeli attack then 4 more youths will join the resistance so therefore 10-2+4=12
You don't have to be good at numbers to realize that cyclical violence and escalation doesn't lead to good things. As a person of Faith, I think that what is happening to HOLY land is absolutely wrong and I think that whoever you belive in is gravely saddend by bloodshed in the land. To me, I would rather see the dome of the rock/western wall/way of the cross BULLDOZED and declaired a nuclear waste disposal site then see another drop of blood shed over what is Gods land. I hope there is a WARM room reserved for the leaders of Israel/Palistine who CONTINUE this silly war rather then make peace. Peace isn't easy in this case but is it worth the blood of the innocents?
"EVERY TIME WE DO SOMETHING, YOU TELL ME AMERICANS WILL DO THIS AND WILL DO THAT. I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY CLEAR: DON'T WORRY ABOUT AMERICAN PRESSURE ON ISRAEL;
WE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE, CONTROL AMERICA. AND THE AMERICANS KNOW IT."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon
October 3, 2001
(IAP News)
In my opinon, Dexter's posts in this thread are thoughtful and well-considered. I agree with him entirely.
To those who disagree with him I ask these two questions:
-What should Israel do? and,
-Why should the U.S. abandon the only ally we have in that part of the world?
Because it will only cause bloodshed until it is no longer, pretty simple.Quote:
Originally posted by iceman
-Why should the U.S. abandon the only ally we have in that part of the world?
Oh He Was Just Another Islamic Leader
You've heard of CAIR, haven't you? That's the Council on American-Islamic Relations. This is a group that spends most of its time trying its best to ignore Islamic terrorism while searching for any incidents of insensitivity shown toward Muslims by weary Americans.
CAIR has now made its feelings known on the death of Hamas terrorist Ahmed Yassin. CAIR, of course, condemns Israel for the killing of Yassin, and calls Yassin an "Islamic religious leader." Wait ... it gets more ridiculous than that. CAIR says that the international community has to "take concrete steps to help protect the Palestinian people against such wanton Israeli violence."
Thanks to James Taranto's Opinion Journal column, we can now take a look at the Covenant of the Hamas. This document was issued on August 18, 1988. It is the founding document of Hamas. CAIR calls Yassin an "Islamic religious leader?" Yeah .. the leader of Hamas.
Let's take a look at a few excerpts from the Covenant of the Hamas
Article 7: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
Article 13: "So-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement ... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad [holy war]."
Now just what was it that CAIR said in their statement on the death of Ahmed Yassin? Oh yeah ... "The international community must now take concrete steps to help protect the Palestinian people against such wanton Israeli violence." Read those bits from the founding document of Hamas ... and then spend a few of your precious moments thinking about how idiotic it is for CAIR to be imploring the international community to talk about "wanton Israeli violence." Didn't we read something about "fight Jews and kill them" and "there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him"? And the world needs to protect these goons from those bad, bad Israelis?
CAIR is a joke. When will the media start treating it as such?
Memo to Jews re: Day of JudgmentQuote:
Originally posted by Creamy Goodness
Article 7: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
Find something to hide behind that is not a rock or a tree.