"An Eye for An Eye" ... and everybody goes blind!

[13]

State Sanctioned Assassinations - the answer to world terrorism!

[KQ]

That is pretty amazing.

I don't know enough about this conflict or the Hamas party but this assassination it strikes me as non-productive (to say the least).

[truth]

Originally posted by KQ
That is pretty amazing.

I don't know enough about this conflict or the Hamas party but this assassination it strikes me as non-productive (to say the least).

Agreed, but I'm all for it regardless.

[13]

I guess what I'm wondering is -- how is it that state sponsored assassinations aren't considered acts of terrorism?

[Tippster]

Well, "technically," since he wasn't the acknowledged leader of a country, it's not considered an assassination and thus doesn't run counter to the Geneva Conventions. Murder, pure and simple, yes. However, the Israelis did have a warrant out for his capture - dead or alive. He should have either turned himself in (HAH!) or fled their sphere of influence. This, BTW, is why they have NOT killed Arafat.

Same rules apply to Osama, BTW. We can, and could have, taken him out without breaking any international treaties/laws, since he's a wanted criminal and not a "leader" in the technical sense.

Personally I think the Israeli policy of hunting down and killing these Palestinian Leaders is counterproductive to any peace process, but then again Ariel Sharon was NEVER interested in a peaceful resolution of the conflict. To be fair, probably most of the PLO leadership isn't either, 'cause then they'd be out of a job. Same thing goes for the IRA, ETA, and most other so called "Resistance Fighters." Take their war away and they become irrelevant and powerless - not something for them to look forward to.

[danimal's dead]

I'm so sick of Israel bringing the rest of the world down with their distorted colonialism and perverse policies, they got themselves into this mess, they need to get themselves out. Bring our boys home from Iraq, find Osama, and then let's start over. No more aiding, supporting, and siding with Israel, we're neutral, like Switzerland, only we tread lightly and carry a very big stick.

[board]

For every " terrorist leader " killed 10 more are there to fill his place. Personally I have little sympathy left for Israel. if your policy is violence expect it to be returned upon you. The only thing that concerns me is Bush is leading us down the same path.

[Viva]

Mideast Reacts Strongly to Assassination

Thousands Protest Yassin Assassination
March 22, 2004
Times Headlines


By Megan K. Stack, Times Staff Writer


RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — Rowdy street demonstrations erupted throughout the Middle East today as the assassination of Hamas' aging founder angered Muslims and raised fears that the intifada's violence could spread beyond Israeli borders.

Calls for revenge sounded from the university campuses of the Persian Gulf to the dusty streets of the Levant after Israeli pilots shot dead Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a sort of spiritual grandfather and resistance symbol throughout the Arab world.

For the first time in memory, Hamas threatened to retaliate against targets outside Israeli borders, deepening fears that Arab-Israeli bloodshed could spread into other countries.

Anti-Israel protests broke out in Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan and Iraq. Students at Cairo's universities spilled into the streets crying, "When Sharon crosses the line, we must kill him and his soldiers."

Meanwhile, Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak gave a rare public show of emotion. The killing was "regrettable and cowardly," Mubarak told reporters. Asked about peace talks, which Egypt has been trying to kick start for more than a year, he scoffed: "What peace process?"

In the Muslim world, Yassin was seen not as a fearsome terrorist, but as a proud Muslim fighter degraded by age and suffering, a wheelchair-bound old man whose physical frailty symbolized the struggles of the Palestinians.

Many Arabs said they were revolted at the idea of Israeli pilots flying U.S. aircraft over a mosque and shooting the old man with a missile.

"This is an insult to everybody all over the Islamic world. Everybody has to take a stand now," said Abdul Latif Arabiyat, a member of Jordan's Islamic Action Front and a former parliament speaker. "Nobody can say, 'I'm civilized but I'll be silent.' After this crime the word peace has lost its meaning."

Arab satellite channels covered the story live from sunrise to sunset, and the audience was mesmerized.

In the first stirrings of diplomatic trouble, Mubarak canceled a controversial trip to the Jewish state by members of his government, who were to celebrate the anniversary of Egypt's chilly peace with Israel.

"(Demonstrators) are calling to cut all ties to Israel, and they're even calling for revenge," said Egyptian analyst Dia Rashwan. "This will put the Egyptian government under more pressure, and we don't know how much pressure the government can support. It's very dangerous now, not only in Egypt but all over the region."

Special correspondent Fayed abu Shammalah and Times Staff Writer Alissa J. Rubin contributed to this story. Rubin reported from Baghdad.

[mr_gyptian]

When Palestinians blow up Israelis school buses, that's understandable anger. When America defends itself, that's indefensible. When dissent is crushed with secret police and torture chambers, that's not worthy of comment. When some people point out that traitorous behavior is unadmirable, that's the recapitulation of Nazi Germany.

This guy that they "assassinated" was the founder of Hamas. One of the most ridiculously violent terrorist groups in the world. these people are our enemies, plain and simple. your moral equivalency is shameful.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by 13
I guess what I'm wondering is -- how is it that state sponsored assassinations aren't considered acts of terrorism?

If the U.S. killed Osama bin Ladan, would it be terrorism?

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by danimal's dead
I'm so sick of Israel bringing the rest of the world down with their distorted colonialism and perverse policies, they got themselves into this mess, they need to get themselves out.

That's what people say about the U.S. and al Qaeda. Both positions are ignorant.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by board
Personally I have little sympathy left for Israel. if your policy is violence expect it to be returned upon you.

Israel's policy is not violence, but it is easy to argue that the Palestinian position is violence (indiscriminate terrorist violence against civilians, no less).
Israel needs to defend itself, and we may not like how it does so, but killing known terrorists responsible for multiple mass-murders is every state's right.
The Palestinians can control these terrorists if they want to, but they don't. That leaves the ball in Israel's court.

[PaSucks]

Originally posted by Tippster
Well, "technically," since he wasn't the acknowledged leader of a country, it's not considered an assassination and thus doesn't run counter to the Geneva Conventions. Murder, pure and simple, yes.

If bieng a leader of a country is what qualifies a victim as bieng assasinated, then what happend to Dr. Martin Luther King, or Malcom X? Niether of them were the president, but everyone considers them to have been assasinated. So what is the actual definition of assasination?

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Israel's policy is not violence, but it is easy to argue that the Palestinian position is violence (indiscriminate terrorist violence against civilians, no less).
Israel needs to defend itself, and we may not like how it does so, but killing known terrorists responsible for multiple mass-murders is every state's right.
The Palestinians can control these terrorists if they want to, but they don't. That leaves the ball in Israel's court.

Agreed.

[board]

" Israel's policy is not violence " you don't consider missile attacks violence ?

" but it is easy to argue that the Palestinian position is violence (indiscriminate terrorist violence against civilians, no less). " Ok if civilian causalities are the measuring stick for what is or what is not violence then Israel is beyond guilty. I have NO need what so ever to qualify that statement ! ! ok ok if you need to grab any Time magazine from the last 20 years if you insist on seeing pictures of dead Palestinian boys and girls.

" Israel needs to defend itself, and we may not like how it does so, but killing known terrorists responsible for multiple mass-murders is every state's right. " given this logic Hamas has EVERY right to " assassinate " Ariel Sharon as he was a mass murderer of civilians during his time spent in the Army and now as Prime Minister. Need proof go do a search on his military record, it's on par with Slobodan Milosevic ! A particularly poignant example of this is the 1982 Sabra and Shatila refugee camp massacres.

" The Palestinians can control these terrorists if they want to, but they don't. That leaves the ball in Israel's court. " well speaking of controlling your own destiny Israel could also very well leave ALL the occupied territories, remove ALL the settlements and recognize Palestine, but they choose not to. They have chosen to repress and violently subdue an ENTIRE people who were a sovereign nation some 60 years ago. So like I said originally IF YOUR POLICY IS VIOLENCE EXPECT IT TO BE RETURNED UPON YOU.

" ..... " = Dex.

[truth]

The probelm with Isreal is Isreal. Dropping the Jewish state into the middle of the Arab world was simply stupid. Forget about history and heritage, the plan was flawed form the start and there is no solution other than to simply flatten the entire place. Demolish the relics of ancient and outdated rel;igions and there would be nothing to fight over...end of story. Religion is the culprit here. Why do we pretend otherwise? Blind faith and organized religion have been the cause of more violence than anything in human history. It's fodder for the feeble, let it go.

[Tippster]

Originally posted by PaSucks
If bieng a leader of a country is what qualifies a victim as bieng assasinated, then what happend to Dr. Martin Luther King, or Malcom X? Niether of them were the president, but everyone considers them to have been assasinated. So what is the actual definition of assasination?

Like I said: "Technically," meaning as far as international law is concerned, neither one was assassinated. Of course the dictionary entry states:

1 : to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously
2 : to murder by sudden or secret attack usually for impersonal reasons

So that would certainly make the assertion that these two men were "assassinated" grammatically and literally correct. The difference is, admittedly, somewhat "nuanced"

[Dr. Gaper]

I agree that the Palestinian people have gotten the shaft, Board, but they deal with the problem irrationally. Haven't they ever heard of Dr. Martin Luther King? They choose violence over diplomacy (remind you of anyone in the White House?). They lose the respect of the world community, breed endless generations of "martyrs", and perpetuate endless counterattacks. It's like gang warfare. Maybe they should use some of their time and resources to teach their kids something valuable.

Another funny thing to ponder - Most of the Arab world sypathize with the Palestinians, yet you never see them (Saudi, Syria, etc.) offer them any land or resources.

[up an down]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Israel's policy is not violence, but it is easy to argue that the Palestinian position is violence (indiscriminate terrorist violence against civilians, no less).
Israel needs to defend itself, and we may not like how it does so, but killing known terrorists responsible for multiple mass-murders is every state's right.
The Palestinians can control these terrorists if they want to, but they don't. That leaves the ball in Israel's court.

israels stated policy might be non violence, a chicken in every pot, 2 cars in every garage..but the actions are what matters, not a bunch of bs put out for public consumption. isreals leaders have plenty of practice lieing, starting with their lie that bombing and killing the palestinians that lives there at the end of ww2 was justified because that area " was the jewish homeland" what a crock of crap israels words are compared to their military/police actions

[Tippster]

How would we feel if some outside powers arbitrarily decided to give Georgia back to the Cherokees? It WAS theirs historically, after all... Why was it OK to force the South African government to abandon "Apartheid," yet the same policy is perfectly reasonable in Israel?

When you have no means of resisting "fairly," how can you not expect these "terrorist" actions? How else would YOU fight the oppressor?

This was a can of worms opened by the UN in its infancy. We seem to know better, now that it's too late. Unfortunately for both sides, there's no way to turn back the clock.

[mr_gyptian]

Originally posted by board
" Israel's policy is not violence " you don't consider missile attacks violence ?

" but it is easy to argue that the Palestinian position is violence (indiscriminate terrorist violence against civilians, no less). " Ok if civilian causalities are the measuring stick for what is or what is not violence then Israel is beyond guilty. I have NO need what so ever to qualify that statement ! ! ok ok if you need to grab any Time magazine from the last 20 years if you insist on seeing pictures of dead Palestinian boys and girls.

" Israel needs to defend itself, and we may not like how it does so, but killing known terrorists responsible for multiple mass-murders is every state's right. " given this logic Hamas has EVERY right to " assassinate " Ariel Sharon as he was a mass murderer of civilians during his time spent in the Army and now as Prime Minister. Need proof go do a search on his military record, it's on par with Slobodan Milosevic ! A particularly poignant example of this is the 1982 Sabra and Shatila refugee camp massacres.

" The Palestinians can control these terrorists if they want to, but they don't. That leaves the ball in Israel's court. " well speaking of controlling your own destiny Israel could also very well leave ALL the occupied territories, remove ALL the settlements and recognize Palestine, but they choose not to. They have chosen to repress and violently subdue an ENTIRE people who were a sovereign nation some 60 years ago. So like I said originally IF YOUR POLICY IS VIOLENCE EXPECT IT TO BE RETURNED UPON YOU.

" ..... " = Dex.

Wow, what is Sharon's handicap if he's on par with Milosevic??? Milosevic cleansed tens of thousands of Muslims over a period of time. Is William Calley on par with Milosevic because he lead a group of US soldiers to kill 100 villagers at My Lai?

Israel isn't strapping bombs to knowing and unknowing women and children to perpetuate a culture of violence. the fact that you actually defend this is reprehensible.

Truth, I do believe there's some well...truth to your assertions .
I don't totally agree with the creation of Israel in the mid 20th century. However, good luck taking it from them. Three times the arabs have tried and three times they've gotten their collective ass handed to them. At this time. Vi Victis(sic), to the winner go the spoils.

[Tippster]

More food for thought: (from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)

Semite:
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples...

Anti-Semitism:
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

What happened to the Akkadians, Phoenicians, and ARABS?

[Viva]

Originally posted by Dr. Gaper
Another funny thing to ponder - Most of the Arab world sypathize with the Palestinians, yet you never see them (Saudi, Syria, etc.) offer them any land or resources.

They offer money, weapons, and training covertly. Anyone recall, a few years ago, when an Israeli patrol boat intercepted a small ship attempting to smuggle wepons and explosives into Palestine?

[up an down]

Originally posted by mr_gyptian


Truth, I do believe there's some well...truth to your assertions .
I don't totally agree with the creation of Israel in the mid 20th century. However, good luck taking it from them. Three times the arabs have tried and three times they've gotten their collective ass handed to them. At this time. Vi Victis(sic), to the winner go the spoils.

good point mr. g. what's done is done, BUT israel needs to admit the truth about the past and start to treat palestinians as equal citizens, meaning compensation for land takeaways and land to live on now, not the shitty camps that israel forces them into...., plo needs to stop killings and admit that they lost the violent fights, and that jews deserve to live.. what a pipe dream eh?? what the usa needs to do is GET THE FUCK OUT AND STOP GIVING MONEY TO 2 SETS OF VIOLENT CRIMINALS.... to bad the dems and the repubs are such assholes about this issue

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by board
" Israel's policy is not violence " you don't consider missile attacks violence ?

" but it is easy to argue that the Palestinian position is violence (indiscriminate terrorist violence against civilians, no less). " Ok if civilian causalities are the measuring stick for what is or what is not violence then Israel is beyond guilty. I have NO need what so ever to qualify that statement ! !

Israel has never, and I doubt it ever will, launch attacks meant to kill civilians. When Israel attacks terrorists, it takes measures to minimize civilian casualties. This is why, in fact, it failed to kill this Yassin guy several months ago--they were unwilling to use a bomb large enough to level his building, instead concentrating just on the area in which they believed him to be (unfortunately, he escaped with minor injuries).

ok ok if you need to grab any Time magazine from the last 20 years if you insist on seeing pictures of dead Palestinian boys and girls.

Many of whom died in the process of attacking Israel. The pictures you've seen, while sad, do nothing to prove anything at all.
Ever seen pictures of any of the thousands of Israeli children killed and maimed by Palestinians? I know, it's never really a source of world outrage (unlike when Israel kills a Palestinian terrorist), but I imagine you still know about these attacks.

" Israel needs to defend itself, and we may not like how it does so, but killing known terrorists responsible for multiple mass-murders is every state's right. " given this logic Hamas has EVERY right to " assassinate " Ariel Sharon as he was a mass murderer of civilians during his time spent in the Army and now as Prime Minister. Need proof go do a search on his military record, it's on par with Slobodan Milosevic ! A particularly poignant example of this is the 1982 Sabra and Shatila refugee camp massacres.

Those massacres were carried out by Lebanese militia, not Sharon, nor Israeli forces. Sharon was tried by Israeli courts for his complicity in this, and found to bear indirect responsibility, but to claim he was behind the massacres is a gross distortion.
To claim a Milosevic parallel simply shows the true anti-Israeli nature of your argument, and makes me question your agenda and where you get your information from.

" The Palestinians can control these terrorists if they want to, but they don't. That leaves the ball in Israel's court. " well speaking of controlling your own destiny Israel could also very well leave ALL the occupied territories, remove ALL the settlements and recognize Palestine, but they choose not to. They have chosen to repress and violently subdue an ENTIRE people who were a sovereign nation some 60 years ago.

OK, now you've gone off the cliff. Palestine was never a sovereign nation--they went from British control, to Egyptain and Jordanian, to the stateless entity that they now are. The Palestinians rejected the original UN plan for their statehood, and have rejected all offers since then. Israel could leave the territories, as you say, but if you believe this would have any impact on terrorism then you just don't know your history. Palestinian terror against Israel predates any occupation of the West Bank or Gaza. Hamas and Al-Aqsa, both under the protection of the PA, both state their intention to destroy Israel and drive all the Jews into the ocean (or some other death).
Also, Israel has announced that it is unilaterally leaving Gaza. The Palestinian response? Suicide bombings.

So like I said originally IF YOUR POLICY IS VIOLENCE EXPECT IT TO BE RETURNED UPON YOU.

" ..... " = Dex.

Great theory. So the Palestinians use a policy of violence--should they expect it to be returned to them? (It never has been returned, because Israel has only targeted those responsible, not responded in kind by indiscriminately killing Palestinians.)