"Dr. Samuel Johnson's right about Olson Johnson being right"Quote:
Originally posted by The AD
I've got to agree with Summit on this. Yes, Nick Berg knew he was working in a very dangerous area, but what happened to him was truly horrendous.
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"Dr. Samuel Johnson's right about Olson Johnson being right"Quote:
Originally posted by The AD
I've got to agree with Summit on this. Yes, Nick Berg knew he was working in a very dangerous area, but what happened to him was truly horrendous.
I didn't get a h-rumph outta that guy...Quote:
Originally posted by grrrr
"Dr. Samuel Johnson's right about Olson Johnson being right"
First, there's no need for anyone to justify their positions or attitudes. We're simply sharing our feelings on what, I think, we all agree is a painful subject.
No, there's nothing wrong with going to Iraq to make some cash by doing legitmate work/business. I don't have a problem with that and, yes, it does suck that that guy was killed by the extremists. However, he knew what he was getting into. I respect his decision to go into Iraq, but he must live (or die) with the consequences. That's life, Doood.
And, no, I've no sympathy for religous extremists. Can't stand em.
I am glad to see that everyone is upset about what is happening and what this country has caused. We have the power to change that, and it is simple: Do not vote Bush in November. He is an irresponsible man with irresponsible advisors that are not concerned with long term outcomes of their current actions. I think they should be ashamed of themselves and ashamed of tarnishing the US' worldwide reputation.
Says the guy living in the biggest liberal stronghold next to San Francisco.Quote:
Originally posted by cumerritt
I am glad to see that everyone is upset about what is happening and what this country has caused. We have the power to change that, and it is simple: Do not vote Bush in November. He is an irresponsible man with irresponsible advisors that are not concerned with long term outcomes of their current actions. I think they should be ashamed of themselves and ashamed of tarnishing the US' worldwide reputation.
What this country has caused? Dude, lay off the pipe. This has to do with extremist wacko Muslims that want it to be 1700 A.D. again. When they were the world scholars and explorers. When they were the military and economic power in the world.When they were regarded as the superpower.
Unfortunately for them, they didn't pay attention to what the rest of the world was doing, and we all surpassed them in every way imagineable. When they realised what was happening to their culture, it was becoming increasingly outdated, it was too late.
Don't say we started this mess, we are just the one's with balls enough to try and change the middle east's view of us. Is it working? Seemingly not, if you believe what you see on the news.
I have a lot of friends based at MacDill AFB. I play ultimate with these guys every wed. night. Believe me, they have seen it first hand, and they know what is really going on there. Most here would not want to hear the postives, but they far outweigh the negatives. When is the last time you heard anything positive about this war on the news? Yeah, I haven't heard it yet either. Does that say something about our country?
I was not pleased with what happened to those prisoners, but it didn't deserve as much attention as it got.
http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/torture7.jpgQuote:
Originally posted by warthog
I was not pleased with what happened to those prisoners, but it didn't deserve as much attention as it got.
Will this war be justifiable when the death toll exceeds that of 9/11? That is why we are there, right?
The death toll of Iraqis? You'll find that happened way back when.Quote:
Originally posted by powderhound
Will this war be justifiable when the death toll exceeds that of 9/11? That is why we are there, right?
The death toll in Afghanistan (remember that little attack?) surpassed that of 9/11 within about six months, many of them civilians.Quote:
Originally posted by bad_roo
The death toll of Iraqis? You'll find that happened way back when.
Unfortunately for them, they didn't pay attention to what the rest of the world was doing, and we all surpassed them in every way imagineable. When they realised what was happening to their culture, it was becoming increasingly outdated, it was too late.Quote:
Says the guy living in the biggest liberal stronghold next to San Francisco.
What this country has caused? Dude, lay off the pipe. This has to do with extremist wacko Muslims that want it to be 1700 A.D. again. When they were the world scholars and explorers. When they were the military and economic power in the world.When they were regarded as the superpower.
Don't say we started this mess, we are just the one's with balls enough to try and change the middle east's view of us. Is it working? Seemingly not, if you believe what you see on the news.
I have a lot of friends based at MacDill AFB. I play ultimate with these guys every wed. night. Believe me, they have seen it first hand, and they know what is really going on there. Most here would not want to hear the postives, but they far outweigh the negatives. When is the last time you heard anything positive about this war on the news? Yeah, I haven't heard it yet either. Does that say something about our country?
I was not pleased with what happened to those prisoners, but it didn't deserve as much attention as it got.[/QUOTE]
Captain Hog, glad to see you know what is really going on in Iraq. You should fill us all in on what you and your military buds know so we can see that this is all because of those Muslim wackos wanting to live in 1700 AD.
None of it is right and I do not think it cannot be justified.
It is clear we dont agree on the issue, but dont knock me for expressing my opinion about what is going on. You dont see me calling you the biggest tool on the face of the earth for leaving CO to live in FL.
And the death toll of Iraqis by Americans has surpassed that of the past five years of Saddam's terror. Such is inevitable in a war, but it is yet another recruiting tool for al Quada.
The problem is that even if we "win" the Iraq battle, it will be a loss in the "war on terrorism". Arabs were far more tolerent of Saddam's insanity than they ever will be of ours. Regardless of how much good we do, we will leave this conflict as the enemy, and the enemy will have grown.
Hah! Cunning! I can see what you did there.Quote:
Originally posted by cumerritt
You dont see me calling you the biggest tool on the face of the earth for leaving CO to live in FL.
Hit it right on the the nose there.Quote:
Originally posted by grrrr
Arabs were far more tolerent of Saddam's insanity than they ever will be of ours. Regardless of how much good we do, we will leave this conflict as the enemy, and the enemy will have grown.
IMHO
The travesty here is that in the long run, the Iraqi people will be freer and safer with far more control over their own destiny than they could have possibly hoped for without a war to rid them of Saddam (except maybe the Kurds... but they always get the short end of the stick). Their economy will rebuild with UN sanctions lifted and their oil flowing again without corrupt dictators and ministers siphoning off all the profits.
The USA will end the conflict with its tail between its legs, a massive war debt on the books, great stacks of coffins and wounded, a realization that we spent time, money, resources, and lives in Iraq that were probably better "used" elsewhere, and a great surplus of ill-will from the Arabs and the world at large that was much larger than before the war and certainly not deserving of what in the end will balance out to be a good deed on the part of the US *IF* we stick with this "project" we started and see it through to completion rather than giving it up. We will be mired in the rebuilding for the next 5-10 years if we want to do it right.
Until President Jenna Bush invades 'em all over again.
"Captain Hog, glad to see you know what is really going on in Iraq. You should fill us all in on what you and your military buds know so we can see that this is all because of those Muslim wackos wanting to live in 1700 AD.
None of it is right and I do not think it cannot be justified.
It is clear we dont agree on the issue, but dont knock me for expressing my opinion about what is going on. You dont see me calling you the biggest tool on the face of the earth for leaving CO to live in FL."
CUMerritt-
I don't remember calling you a tool at all. Should I ?
People are allowed to have different opinions. I told you to lay off the pipe, which, given your school and surroundings, is not an unreasonable assumption. I too was a Boulderite at one time.
The comment about the liberal stronghold, well, are you denying it? I would say that 99% of the population of the Republic of Boulder agrees 100% with what you said. I guess I just question the source, since it is wayyyy coool in Boulder to be anti-Bush. In fact, everyone there is so busy being"different" than everyone else, they hardly notice that they are all the same. Know what I mean?
As for where I live, yeah I know it isn't ideal for skiing proximity. But, talk to me when you graduate(I am assuming you are still a student) and try to find a good job in Boulder. Sure, waiting on tables pays the bills, but it wasn't worth it for me. I lived there, loved it, and left before I became sick of it. I will always have great memories of that place.
Some of us make extreme sacrifices to ski all the time, and I respect that, and did that. A lot of us sacrifice skiing time to make a living and support a family. I go skiing almost every vacation day I have. 2-3 weeks a year isn't all that bad. Plus, I make about 10 times what I did in Boulder. Tough choice, but I made it and don't regret it. Plus, I still ski better than most of my buddies that live in ski country- go figure. Maybe they need to get out more.
As for what my buddys know about what is going on in Iraq, it has nothing to do with the reason we are there. It has to do with the reception they received. The media paints this negative picture of our presence there, which couldn't be further from the truth. Most have welcomed the troops with open arms. They are happy we are there, and realise what we have done. Why is that so hard to show on the news? Why can't the cameraman pan out a bit and show that the"unruly mob" protesting the troops is actually only about 100 people? They don't do that, cause it doesn't make for good news. We are not getting the whole story.
I just watched futurerama last night, it was funny and somehow applicable, I just cant decide how.
In the last scene the aliens from omachron percies iv were going to eat Lilla. As she stood waiting to be eaten in an arena, the crew decided to switch her with an ape.
The ape had an eye patch and makeup applied. This ploy succeded to fool the aliens, who were about to eat the ape. While the hole world wached, knowing that is was just a ploy. Just as the ape was about to be eaten a hippe jumps out. He yells thats not lilla thats an orangutang.... and runins the whole plan....
Wow man, you blew my mind with that one DuBu. The pipe musta been passed your way.
Hippies, indeed.
HAHHAAHH watched that last night... never crossed my mind how it applied here. Good call!Quote:
Originally posted by dubu
I just watched futurerama last night, it was funny and somehow applicable, I just cant decide how.
In the last scene the aliens from omachron percies iv were going to eat Lilla. As she stood waiting to be eaten in an arena, the crew decided to switch her with an ape.
The ape had an eye patch and makeup applied. This ploy succeded to fool the aliens, who were about to eat the ape. While the hole world wached, knowing that is was just a ploy. Just as the ape was about to be eaten a hippe jumps out. He yells thats not lilla thats an orangutang.... and runins the whole plan....
but then so is almost everything else the bush administration has done, begining with eleminating the rights of thousands of voters in Florida.Quote:
Originally posted by Twoplanker
[B] Safety for our troops on the ground is important, but ensuring that safety by having the government attempt to manipulate and suppress information is antithetical to the premise of the US Constitution.
One thing that surprised me a little is how surprised people are about this whole mess (although I'm surprised they took pictures of it). Did anyone really think people were being detained indefinitely, without having to have any charges brought against them, let alone being convicted of any crime, and without the notification of their families/ friends/ lawyers... or anybody for that mater being reguired so that they could play cards and enjoy tea time in the afternoon? (Of course this fate was not a worry for members of Bin Laden family, who were flown out of the country with presidential permission while air travel was still banned right after the attack). This is the same Bin Laden family, who owns the company that got the contract to rebuild the U.S. embassies in east africa after they were bombed.
This scandal becoming so public is definitly going to do lasting damage to our image as the benevolent empire, and it will be a while before the neocon propaganda machine can spin this under control. I guess the lesson is, never send ordinary service men and women to do the job of highly trained CIA operatives or even beter still, CIA trained assets (like, say, Osama Bin Laden) from within the targeted country. That way the non-covert sections of the government are at least two steps away from the direct perpetrators of the crimes. We have the "School of the America's" to handle the training of "death squads" in such countries as El Salvador, Colombia, etc..., but given the current state of world affairs why not a "School of the Middle East" as well? After all, given our failed attempt to topple the democratically elected and widely popular (but unnacceptably un-puppet-like) Hugo Chavez in oil rich Venezuela, and with the ongoing civil war and instability in Colombia conributing to our lack of total control over the regions oil, we are going to have to continue to look for ways to control the middle east if we want complete global supremacy.
Now that was just mean spirited and unfair. I think you owe a big appologyQuote:
Originally posted by grrrr
Cut the guy some slack. He was probably stoned when he said that.
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to all weed smokers ;)
yes, but I have to question our ability to win the war on terror given our primative communications systems, apparently this information has been working it's way up the chain of command up to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld (see photo) since January 13th or so, slowly enough that the president had to learn about it from the media, :confused:Quote:
Originally posted by char
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You know, these pictures are bad and there's no question about it. But they're not in context because nobody knows all the details behind this. We don't really know who these people are. The impression is being left that they're just innocent Iraqis that can't help us at all and that our "torturers" in there just having fun and games with them. Now, I speculated yesterday, "These are people that tried to kill Americans." You know, the terrorist population from the world over has sent representatives to Iraq. Who knows who's in these prisons? That's part of finding out, and if you're going to detain them and if you've got them there under these kinds of suspicions, yeah, well, find out who they are. [Pause] Well, here goes. I'm just going to tell.
Rush Limbaugh
I think the worst part of this whole thing is that we have prominant figures in our media (mainly the right) making excuses for this kind of behavior. They would be screaming bloody murder if it was our troops being treated this way. Everybody remembers the uproar over our POW's being shown on TV, right?
I do have to give the military credit for being proactive about this, it's not like media attention started up their investigation and arrest of these people, it has been ongoing.
Rush: "We don't know who these people are"
Good point, in and open and democratic society such as the U.S. we may have the highest proportion of our population in prison of any country in the world, but at least we know who those people are and what they are accused of, whereas in a despotic society such as Saddam's Iraq tortured prisoners can remain nameless victims
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/...ndshake300.jpg
Quote:
Originally posted by mr_gyptian
.... But know this, these were not petty thieves or looters. They were people that shot at and killed coalition forces, were caught with weapons caches, making bombs, with bomb ingredients...
As a matter of fact, facts are of limited use to the right wing pundits he gets his news from...Quote:
Originally posted by Tippster
Umm, no they weren't. As a matter of fact, most (if not all) of the prisoners pictured have been released and, according to Mr. Rumsfeld, will be compensated for their hardship.
unfortunately the facts just don't support their views
edit: OK I'm done with my multiple posts for now, my computer was broken for a week, so I just got a chance to go through this thread. Time to go watch me some Fox News and hear about how Disney is completely right for refusing to release Michael Moore's new documentary... after all, speech is free, but movies cost money baby
O'Reilly: Thank you aging hippie liberal douche... your response, intolerant redneck?
</South Park>
Quote:
Originally posted by mr_gyptian
maybe he could have ended up like the Italian whose face they blew off??
me thinks this will not get the same play on CNN, New Yorker, and the NYT as the US army "atrocities". In fact, I can't wait to see the first Ted Rall cartoon about how Nick Berg deserved this.
however tiresome it is to be right...I mean correct. Anyone in the "big media" still talking about Nick Berg?? didn't think so. It's the most popular search on the web, but who uses the information super highway?
Another item that most likely will not see it's way beyond page A17, below the fold int he NYTimes.
Buster, how'd you put it? Simply amazing?
From Roger Simon's weblog:
Not "The Politics of the Last Five Minutes"--except when it is!
Friday, May 14, 2004
The Real Picture Show
I don't often get scoops on this site and there is no reason you should trust me, but I have one today. The following events ... light years beyond what you have seen from our troops in Abu Ghraib... are now in the hands of the new Arab-language Television network Alhurra. They are videotapes and, in one grisly case, photographs. These are all acts performed by Saddam's soldiers and police in uniform. I am not sure what Al Ahurra will broadcast, but they will be culled from among the following. I am told that when their people saw these tapes, they were unable to watch them. I can understand why. It is hard for me to type them.
First, the photographs. They are of actual live castrations of Kurds.
Now, the video tapes:
Two beheadings, during one of which "Happy Birthday, Saddam" is being sung in Arabic.
Fingers being cut off one by one from a hand tied to a board.
People being thrown off four-story buildings, one forced to wear a Superman costume.
A man scourged ninety-nine times.
Three different instances of gas poisonings (probably employing different types), including dead babies.
There may be more. I don't know. I would like to know if any of these torturers is actually in Abu Ghraib right now. Let's hope they were not among those let out. I also would like to know what Senator Kennedy has to say about the moral equivalence of our actions after watching these tapes. And finally, I would like to know why it took so long for these to come out.
his bio...
http://rogerlsimon.com/about/?PHPSES...1a24721a7e1009
..one could rant on and on about this one. other than the digi pics and video not much new here unfortunately. Ths type of treatment goes on. Normally we just never hear of it. UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) states that not only can illegal orders be refused, but it is ones duty. Hard to understand how this type of treatment can be perceived as anything other than illegal ... but that is the culture of the military. Then, Rumsfeld says that the Geneva convention "... is open to interpretation"!! That is an incredible statement!! Not since Nixon has there been such a corrupt administration and one that feels totaly justified and beyond all law!