Student Loan Forgiveness

It's possible that will be the case in the future. If I were a young college age person right now I'd think very hard about accumulating a lot of debt in the era of digitization and remote work. As things stand today however the job market is very good for college grads.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

It's possible that will be the case in the future. If I were a young college age person right now I'd think very hard about accumulating a lot of debt in the era of digitization and remote work. As things stand today however the job market is very good for college grads.

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Let us know what percent of that digitized and remote work is being done by those without college degrees?

It really sounds like you're making the argument that only the wealthy should pursue college.

1) I'm thinking more about the offshoring of white collar jobs

2) I'm actually making the opposite argument

The main reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs. As a result the gains from attending college are increasingly going to people who come from affluent families.

It's hurting the American dream of upward mobility and entrenching class distinctions in American.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

When compared with the plan as proposed, doing nothing is actually better from a macroeconomic perspective.

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I would disagree. Touche!!! Game. Set. Match.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

1) I'm thinking more about the offshoring of white collar jobs

2) I'm actually making the opposite argument

The main reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs. As a result the gains from attending college are increasingly going to people who come from affluent families.

It's hurting the American dream of upward mobility and entrenching class distinctions in American.

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So how exactly does the cost of college decrease if the plan is to provide quality education? My kids public business school built a new state of the art facility, via a huge donation, but it was desperately needed. It's fairly difficult to teach new tech if you don't have it available to use. Then the quality of professor needed deserve or need a decent wage considering what they can make in the private sector....especially business.

So this article just showed up in the NH business rag. NH residents give $1.50 per 1k income vs $5.12 avg nationally. Why UNH is so expensive in-state and ridiculous out of state...for a state school.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...aa1533e72b.jpg

After reading through this thread, I'm appalled by the penny-pinching greed displayed by so many here. My fellow citizens don't deserve the respect I afford them, clearly.

As an anecdote, I was in private practice as an ophthalmologist for 30 years. Never part of a group practice, never had more than 4 employees, never created an LLC to nefariously disguise my earnings from the IRS. I paid my share of taxes, and in likelihood several of the slimebags' shares here too, because it was the right thing to do.

In that time, I never sent a single person to collections. We sent three notices, then stopped contacting people. I likely gave away 7 figures worth of medical services over the course of my career, and I couldn't be more proud of that fact. I had patients who I saw many times, some of whom I performed surgery on (I was a glaucoma specialist by training), who I never once sent a bill too, because I understood that they lacked the means and ability to pay. But in my mind, lacking those means and abilities did not in any way preclude them from receiving the best possible care I could render to them. They are my fellow human beings.

I paid for my son to attend private school from grades 2-12, and paid for his college tuition (full price) at a prestigious school, my wife never worked for a paycheck after my son was born, and I managed to retire with 8 figures in the bank, 2 homes, and a condo in Revelstoke, all of which I own outright.

And you fucking cheapstakes are getting upset over some people with major debt loads getting $10-20K? Fucking despicable. The mentality displayed by so many here is cancerous, and showcases the inhumanity of my "fellow" humans clearly.

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Originally Posted by jackstraw

So how exactly does the cost of college decrease if the plan is to provide quality education?

state...for a state school

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First, it should be noted that I've repeatedly praised state schools throughout this thread. And I've never argued for defunding education. I've also repeatedly explained my positions quite clearly. All due respect to Dr. Adirondack and his not so humble, humble brag, or modest proposal (heh), along with so many others, few people responded to those arguments with anything resembling critical thinking and instead chose to argue against weakly formulated strawmen.

Here's the problem: student debt is creating a malignant burden for debt holders. It's especially bad for nearly half of all people attending college who accumulate burdensome debt without anything to show for it.

In isolation the proposed solution, at a cost somewhere between $300 billion and $1 trillion, sounds like a good plan. The problem with the proposed solution is that it will make the problem of ever increasing college costs worse.

Over the last fifty years college costs have accelerated 3X faster than the rate of inflation. In spite of accelerating costs however, the nature of a college degree hasn't changed all that much and access to higher education has barely increased. As a result college has increasingly become a luxury good for affluent families. Families like Dr. Adirondack's.

So instead of doing more of the same, that is increasing student debt loads, we should do more to work to solve the underlying problem: college costs that multiply much faster than nearly everything else. Universities — not taxpayers — are causing the problem. Therefore, among other things, student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy and colleges should pay penalties for defaults. School taxpayers subsidies should also require increased enrollment. We should also expand funding for vocational training.

As currently structured, this debt relief package is a missed opportunity when it comes to giving as many people as possible a shot at upward mobility in America.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

After reading through this thread, I'm appalled by the penny-pinching greed displayed by so many here. My fellow citizens don't deserve the respect I afford them, clearly.

As an anecdote, I was in private practice as an ophthalmologist for 30 years. Never part of a group practice, never had more than 4 employees, never created an LLC to nefariously disguise my earnings from the IRS. I paid my share of taxes, and in likelihood several of the slimebags' shares here too, because it was the right thing to do.

In that time, I never sent a single person to collections. We sent three notices, then stopped contacting people. I likely gave away 7 figures worth of medical services over the course of my career, and I couldn't be more proud of that fact. I had patients who I saw many times, some of whom I performed surgery on (I was a glaucoma specialist by training), who I never once sent a bill too, because I understood that they lacked the means and ability to pay. But in my mind, lacking those means and abilities did not in any way preclude them from receiving the best possible care I could render to them. They are my fellow human beings.

I paid for my son to attend private school from grades 2-12, and paid for his college tuition (full price) at a prestigious school, my wife never worked for a paycheck after my son was born, and I managed to retire with 8 figures in the bank, 2 homes, and a condo in Revelstoke, all of which I own outright.

And you fucking cheapstakes are getting upset over some people with major debt loads getting $10-20K? Fucking despicable. The mentality displayed by so many here is cancerous, and showcases the inhumanity of my "fellow" humans clearly.

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This caricature kinda sucks. I see what you’re trying to do, channeling digital death’s mom, Ernest Hemingway, that TikTok “rich vs really rich” guy, and Greg from Alpine Zone while deep in an Old Goat-styled persona, but it just isn’t working.

Throw in just a touch more sneer while looking down at all the plebs. Talk about your jag-u-ar a little more and your villa in the Maldives. I’m just not quite buying the whole “oh YOU are sneering?! THIS IS SNEERING.” For real, I think it can work, just try a bit harder. Add some more colour. (That’s right, spell it with a fucking u to show the plebs how classy you are!)

Imagine student loans for the opportunity to attend middle school. Absurdity! Nobody would learn to read!

Maybe the fact that most are compelled to engage in this ridiculous lending practice to further their education is the entirety of the problem. Fancy private school? Sure. Because you want to build roads and bridges? Why would you need a loan for that?

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

After reading through this thread, I'm appalled by the penny-pinching greed displayed by so many here. My fellow citizens don't deserve the respect I afford them, clearly.

As an anecdote, I was in private practice as an ophthalmologist for 30 years. Never part of a group practice, never had more than 4 employees, never created an LLC to nefariously disguise my earnings from the IRS. I paid my share of taxes, and in likelihood several of the slimebags' shares here too, because it was the right thing to do.

In that time, I never sent a single person to collections. We sent three notices, then stopped contacting people. I likely gave away 7 figures worth of medical services over the course of my career, and I couldn't be more proud of that fact. I had patients who I saw many times, some of whom I performed surgery on (I was a glaucoma specialist by training), who I never once sent a bill too, because I understood that they lacked the means and ability to pay. But in my mind, lacking those means and abilities did not in any way preclude them from receiving the best possible care I could render to them. They are my fellow human beings.

I paid for my son to attend private school from grades 2-12, and paid for his college tuition (full price) at a prestigious school, my wife never worked for a paycheck after my son was born, and I managed to retire with 8 figures in the bank, 2 homes, and a condo in Revelstoke, all of which I own outright.

And you fucking cheapstakes are getting upset over some people with major debt loads getting $10-20K? Fucking despicable. The mentality displayed by so many here is cancerous, and showcases the inhumanity of my "fellow" humans clearly.

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The above is all well and good but the real question is: how did you pay off your student loans?

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Originally Posted by BCMtnHound

The above is all well and good but the real question is: how did you pay off your student loans?

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By falsely billing cataract surgery. Duh.

I think I may have been misunderstood. I'm in favor of the student loan forgiveness program, and would be happy to see the bounds of it expanded a bit.

My point was that lending a helping hand to those who need it may have a minor, short term impact on the bottom line, but in the long run, there's no notable negative impact, and there is real benefit to those on the receiving end of the benevolence.

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Originally Posted by BCMtnHound

The above is all well and good but the real question is: how did you pay off your student loans?

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Shuswap Highlands? Would one describe the Clearwater-Vavenby-Avola tri-metroplex as that? And to answer your question, despite the jokes on this board, my dad was really a dentist.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

I think I may have been misunderstood. I'm in favor of the student loan forgiveness program, and would be happy to see the bounds of it expanded a bit.

My point was that lending a helping hand to those who need it may have a minor, short term impact on the bottom line, but in the long run, there's no notable negative impact, and there is real benefit to those on the receiving end of the benevolence.

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“I need to make sure there is a stable lower middle class to serve my kids and grandkids when they get older!”

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

First, it should be noted that I've repeatedly praised state schools throughout this thread. And I've never argued for defunding education. I've also repeatedly explained my positions quite clearly. All due respect to Dr. Adirondack and his not so humble, humble brag, or modest proposal (heh), along with so many others, few people responded to those arguments with anything resembling critical thinking and instead chose to argue against weakly formulated strawmen.

Here's the problem: student debt is creating a malignant burden for debt holders. It's especially bad for nearly half of all people attending college who accumulate burdensome debt without anything to show for it.

In isolation the proposed solution, at a cost somewhere between $300 billion and $1 trillion, sounds like a good plan. The problem with the proposed solution is that it will make the problem of ever increasing college costs worse.

Over the last fifty years college costs have accelerated 3X faster than the rate of inflation. In spite of accelerating costs however, the nature of a college degree hasn't changed all that much and access to higher education has barely increased. As a result college has increasingly become a luxury good for affluent families. Families like Dr. Adirondack's.

So instead of doing more of the same, that is increasing student debt loads, we should do more to work to solve the underlying problem: college costs that multiply much faster than nearly everything else. Universities — not taxpayers — are causing the problem. Therefore, among other things, student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy and colleges should pay penalties for defaults. School taxpayers subsidies should also require increased enrollment. We should also expand funding for vocational training.

As currently structured, this debt relief package is a missed opportunity when it comes to giving as many people as possible a shot at upward mobility in America.

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Regardless of the validity of your points, holding debt relief hostage to some hypothetical Congressional action on student loan bankruptcy, access overall funding and cost controls is defacto “do nothing” in our current political climate.

On the other hand, this sort of unilateral action by the executive may (hopefully) generate action by Congress.

I still don’t understand why we need taxpayer funded post high school vocational programs as it seems most of those skills programs are just industry passing along training costs to the taxpayer instead of what was traditionally a training expense or is something an apprenticeship training program can address. At a minimum this seems like an area where public-private partnerships should generate a system that places the majority of the cost on industry.

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Originally Posted by Mustonen

Imagine student loans for the opportunity to attend middle school. Absurdity! Nobody would learn to read!

Maybe the fact that most are compelled to engage in this ridiculous lending practice to further their education is the entirety of the problem. Fancy private school? Sure. Because you want to build roads and bridges? Why would you need a loan for that?

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The wacko right wing in this country would love to do away with all public education. So ya, student loans for middle school isn't that far off

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

Regardless of the validity of your points, holding debt relief hostage to some hypothetical Congressional action on student loan bankruptcy, access overall funding and cost controls is defacto “do nothing” in our current political climate.

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Who said anything about holding debt relief hostage? I'm arguing the current plan as structured will make the problem of skyrocketing costs and burdensome debt worse.

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Originally Posted by oldnew_guy

I still don’t understand why we need taxpayer funded post high school vocational programs as it seems most of those skills programs are just industry passing along training costs to the taxpayer instead of what was traditionally a training expense or is something an apprenticeship training program can address. At a minimum this seems like an area where public-private partnerships should generate a system that places the majority of the cost on industry.

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Why wouldn't the same argument apply to colleges and universities as well? Or alternatively, if the returns to higher ed are so good why is there a need for debt relief at all?

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Originally Posted by JimmyCarter

“I need to make sure there is a stable lower middle class to serve my kids and grandkids when they get older!”

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I wish! My son chose a very middle class career path, and while I got to retire comfortably, all four of our parents are alive in their mid 90's, so trust me when I say we and he are hardly of the "having servants" class.

Even if we live another 20 years we'll live comfortably enough that he'll end up with a nice little bonus, but hardly anything lifestyle altering.

Oh, and to address another thing, I also think there needs to be a concerted effort to improve the quality of public education. The private schools I sent my kid to were, at best, modestly better than the local public schools, but the names looked a lot better on a college application. That's kind of bullshit, and given his scores and grades, I think we probably got played by trying to play the game: he could have gotten into the schools he was looking at from the local public school.

Prove me wrong: in the long run most kids are better off with summer jobs than they are trying to play the get into a better school game.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

I wish! My son chose a very middle class career path, and while I got to retire comfortably, all four of our parents are alive in their mid 90's, so trust me when I say we and he are hardly of the "having servants" class.

Even if we live another 20 years we'll live comfortably enough that he'll end up with a nice little bonus, but hardly anything lifestyle altering.

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You just bragged about three owned properties and $10mil+ in the bank. He’ll get more in inheritance than most people would make in 3 lifetimes of work.

I'm not bragging, I'm just speaking frankly about finances, which is something my generation seems particularly squeamish about. Based on a couple months of reading here, I doubt I crack the 60th percentile of net worth for TGR posters over the age of 60.

There are either a whole lot of rich old fucks on here, or a whole lot of bullshit artists.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

I'm not bragging, I'm just speaking frankly about finances, which is something my generation seems particularly squeamish about. Based on a couple months of reading here, I doubt I crack the 60th percentile of net worth for TGR posters over the age of 60.

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I can’t even tell if this is a troll account or not so I’m going to stop now

MultiVerse,

Multiple people in this thread have said we shouldn’t have student debt relief unless we do <insert financially responsible Congressional action of choice>, actions which are not possible in the current political climate.

Vocational training can be handled with OJT, union apprenticeship and industry training programs. I in fact agree that many jobs that “require” a college degree in fact do not and can be addressed with OJT via the employer. Employers would prefer to externalize those costs to the taxpayer however.

I’ll let Buster expound on the inherent value of a college education beyond how many dollars you can trade it for as he has so eloquently before.

A pixelated diorama of bullshit and sandwich artists.

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

Prove me wrong: in the long run most kids are better off with summer jobs than they are trying to play the get into a better school game.

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https://www.pewresearch.org/social-t...ng-to-college/

“On virtually every measure of economic well-being and career attainment—from personal earnings to job satisfaction to the share employed full time—young college graduates are outperforming their peers with less education. And when today’s young adults are compared with previous generations, the disparity in economic outcomes between college graduates and those with a high school diploma or less formal schooling has never been greater in the modern era.“

You missed the point. Prove me wrong: in the long run most kids (who are planning on attending college) are better off with summer jobs (while in junior high & high school) than they are trying to play the get into a better school game.

That was in response to Dr. Adirondack saying "That's kind of bullshit, and given his scores and grades, I think we probably got played by trying to play the game: he could have gotten into the schools he was looking at from the local public school. "