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Hell, even these people agree that moderate consumption of meat is healthy, and we're talking about people who tell you to start your sautes with stock or water instead of oil.
Just an interesting fact. B-12 you can only get from meat. But when they looked at the diet of third world people esp vegies they shouldn't be getting enough B-12 but they didn't have a deficientcy. Where's the error? Well they were getting b-12 from all the bugs they injest . So if vegan remember to eat some soil every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyvee
Pfft, rookie, 452 000 000 for "sex"Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
Of course not. As far as Hindu/vegetarian countries go, I have spent more time in Nepal. Nepali people always amazed me with the positive attitudes and smiles in circumstances that would have Americans whinging and crying. Bhutan's Gross National Happiness (GNH) is all about the disconnect between quantity of material possessions and quality of life.Quote:
Do you think all 700 million non-vegetarian Indians have a low quality of life?
Big houses and big hamburgers don't necessarily make people happy, but if McDonald's makes you happy, then go enjoy! My guess is the happiness does not last too long after your Happy Meal.
If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index you see India rated at 62 and the US rated at 150, but I am very suspicious of the attempt to reduce national happiness to a single number. Plus there are a lot more Indians emigrating to the US than vice versa. If you asked Indians for the sources of unhappiness, I dobut a vegetarian diet would even show on the list.
Nationmaster http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/li...-happiness-net gives the US as 13th happiest and India as 34th.
That index is horseshit. The first "developed" country (by my definition one without a Serf class) on that list is Austria at #61.
Chinese are 30 place happier than the Austrians. Vanuatu - a country with a negative population growth due to increasing sea level slowly flooding their habitable space are #1.
Right. I want some of the weed these "nef" guys are smoking.
2 Colombia 67.24 91
Uhm.
Yeah...
I agree the index is an attempt to quantify the unquantifiable.
But I see a lot more smiles on tropical islands than I do in Austria. My impressions of Germany, Austria, and Switzerland included lots of dour faces, with more scowls than smiles. Is there a jolly, fun-loving Austrian culture that I missed?
cultural differences between the places regarding the outward expression of emotion easily explains that difference. Perhaps next time you go you should try to get to know the people in the country you visit. :rolleyes2
Ummm... you've obviously never been to the Mooserwirt.
That index is designed to make the US "lose." Kinda like ranking a cop low on the charm scale for carrying a gun and arresting people. The problem of course is that we need cops, and the World, like it or not, needs the US to be the policeman. How many times (look at Darfur now) does the world say "oooo - US hegemony is bad but errrr.... we have a problem, could you solve it for us?" Why isn't France, Russia, hell even China stepping up to the plate to stop the genocide? Why do they wait for US?How the fuck does Cuba rank #6 using these guidelines? How does China attain #31? Myanmar #77?Quote:
The HPI is based on fairly utilitarian principles - that most people want to live long and fulfilling lives, and the country which is doing the best is the one that allows its citizens to do so, whilst avoiding infringing on the opportunity of future people and people in other countries to do the same[1].
And Palestinians are dancing around with bells on right?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyvee
fixed it for ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Range Lobster
There is a simple test to check the validity of that index. Anyone who thinks that people in the third world are happier, if they were rational, would give up everything they have and go live in those countries on a permanent basis. The fact that this does not happen, in fact the opposite happens, leads me to believe that that index is nothing more than the quantification of the Myth of the Noble Savage. In other words, a pile of horseshit.
Reminds me of the Swedish joke,
"What do you call a Swede with a smile on his face?"
"A Norwegian"
Of course, it was a Swede telling the joke, with a smile. At least some Swedes think there is some truth to the cultural stereotyping.
I often can't figure out what people are thinking behind their facial expressions in my home country, let alone when I travel.
Biblical verses aside, I think the best argument for eating meat is that animals are a big part of most systems of sustainable agriculture. If people ate just the chickens that scratched around the compost pile and free-range ruminants, they would be much healthier than chowing on force-fed feedlot/industrial confined antibiotic-injected geneticly modified stuff from the supermarket.
Given my genetics, eating meat would just raise my already borderline cholesterol numbers. I can see the impact of just eating too much dairy in those numbers, so the more plant food I eat the better for my health. Fish is also very good for cardiovascular health.
I am just passing my "short-timer" 2 weeks in the cube goofing off on the internet, none of this is serious to me.
DUDE!!! You better check yourself. This message board is serious business and no one here is playin’.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyvee
I had soba noodles with veggies last night, some David Bruce pinot noir and I'm st00pidly happy. So fuck you all.
(queue Andy Partidge): http://chalkhills.org/reelbyreal/s_Stupidly.html
I'm stupidly happy
Everything's fine
I'm stupidly happy
My heart pumping wine
I'm stupidly happy
With idiot grin
I'm stupidly happy
It's surely a sin
All the birds of the air call your name
As they land on my kitchen roof
All the fish in the lake do the same
Should you need extra proof
I'm stupidly happy
My vision is skewed
I'm stupidly happy
I'm coming unscrewed
And if the Devil walks up
Dressed in any disguise
I'd take him by the collars
Look him in the eyes
I'm stupidly happy
Now you're my defence
I'm stupidly happy
This world's making sense I'm stupidly happy
I roll like a train
I'm stupidly happy
With you in my brain
All the lights of the cars in the town
Form the strings of a big guitar
I'm a giant to play you a tune
For wherever you are
I'm stupidly happy
Like the words to that song
I'm stupidly happy
No nothings not wrong
And should the Devil drive up
With his business card out
I'd tear it to confetti
With a grin and shout
Stupidly happy
All of the time
I'm stupidly happy
Now you're mine
Stupidly happy
HAHAHA David Bruce Pinot is great and it's also my buddies name so it makes us feel special to toss back a couple bottles of classy red..
I prefer the Kangaruh to the Moosewirt, Tippster. But Tommy, I can't believe you've been to Austria and think that? Or do you have something against skiing, drinking and partying?? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyvee
I think the bottom line with happiness is that it is not defined by your circumstances, it comes from within. I know I've read over and over again that people who have been crippled, disfigured, etc. are in the long term not any happier or unhappier than they were before the accident or disease that changed their life. I would imagine that if you were somehow to transport people from a posh lifestyle to a slum, that once they got through the initial shock, those who are happy positive people would remain that way, and the people who couldn't be happy with every luxury in the world would still be unhappy. Positive people can endure horrible circumstances and still find happiness in their life. True happiness isn't coming from money or your diet, but things like family and friends and personal growth and achievement, none of which requires a fantastic salary, eating or not eating meat, or living in any particular country.
Well said!!
(except for the not eating meat part)
(unless your whole family and all of your friends are vegetarian...then even still)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DisArray
Seriously, I'm confused. I'm not a vegetarian, but when I eat with friends and family, there are generally foods other than a slab of meat served. And I can't imagine why anyone would mind if I ate the veggies and left more meat for everyone else? (not that I would, but I bet they'd be cool with it). And every restaurant I can think of has a menu, where you can pick what you want and you don't all have to order the same thing...
If you're sitting at home alone all the time or dictating where your friends have to eat or something, that sucks. But I have vegetarian friends though that I didn't even know were vegetarian for a long time. We'd just go out to eat, they'd order a salad or a veggie wrap or whatever and I just figured they liked salad. And I have friends who don't eat pork for religious reasons, or are allergic to certain foods, or just don't like certain things. No big deal. If I'm cooking, let me know ahead of time or deal with it. :P
How do you explain the beergut from the unmentionable photo then, fatty?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greydon Clark
AltaGirl,
No argument at all, could not have said it better myself. Happiness is personal. For me, part of being happy is being healthy, but health is very personal also.
I've spent more time in Germany and Switzerland than Austria. More time traveling by bicycle and in cities, than in the mountains. I spent a summer mountaineering in the Alps, mostly in Switzerland, but I have never skiied in Austria.
I know there is a drinking,partying,skiing side to the Teutonic culture, but there is a dour, Lutheran side too. My memories include plenty of grey skies and grumpy people, but smiling people on tropical islands have higher murder rates than Nordic people who superficially look much less happy. On the other hand Northern Europe has some of the highest suicide rates on the planet.
2008 is my year to ski Europe, so hopefully I will have some good first hand experience of Austrian skiing and partying.
Well definitely take the opportunity to stay in the small gasthaus type places and meet the owners. To me, nothing describes "jolly" like the old Austrian guys dressed in lederhosen laughing and encouraging you to drink more beer!Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyvee
That photo is only unmentionable ‘cause it made Nate’s pants a little tighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA
Kanguruh = Anglos
Mooserwirt = Euros (back in the day. Could be different now) thus my point. Both fucking ROCK.
Mine too Im not ashamed to say, you're a sexy motherfudder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greydon Clark
like everything else in this world, there is no black and white: moderation is key, eat everything (like we are meant to do), but don't go overboard on the red meat and processed foods, etc.
life is way to short to get all soy about this. steak = yum (and i like mine with a pad of butter on top, just like the Frenchies do), wine = yum, fish = good, veggies = tasty. its all good. don't be soy (only)
Altagirl, I was joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by altagirl
Happiness is personal of course. Personally, sitting down to a nice marbled Rib-Eye steak, with the people I care about most, makes me very happy.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Even including eating beaver?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaver
ib you dobt pwactth mderathon in dat yo tounb wilb swel thup ab mak it thard to talg
heh. Damn if I'm not stumped for a witty reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
Anyone?
thats the argument my dad uses against meQuote:
Originally Posted by lemon boy
Nope. Sounds about right. Shoulda mentioned the pubes tho, unless.... NO! SHE SHAVES????Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
HA HA! Woodsy is out of shape! Get some excercise dude.
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adam- In case you haven't noticed moral absolutism doesn't really get you anywhere, especially on this subject where it should be patently obvious that the extreme end of either of these postions is untenable.
Revolutionary idea for you:
eat a broad based diet that works for you and make those choices that for you seem like the best compromise between health, enjoyment, economics and should you so choose...the welfare/dignified treatment of the animals (if any) that you choose to consume. Nobody can live a completely consistent life, which is not to say that you can't make choices that you feel positively coordinate with your worldview.
I'm sure that your dad resists moral absolutist calls for eschewing meat are whatever but it should be a slam dunk to convince him to patronize meat vendors that are not factory "farming" either. With a tiny bit of effort you can get all the hippy bullshit meat you want (ethically/responsibly treated) at prices way under store bought.
As I said in my earlier post, its hard to tell what is regulation "free range" and what meets me expectations. A lot of communities around the world survived (or survive) on no meat, and I don't think its unnecessary. Why kill if you don't have to?
As long as your moderation is moderated you should be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
Why rely on regulation to tell you what does and does not meet your criteria for happy and environmentally conscious animals?
You (PERSONALLY) can speak directly to producers, schedule humane slaughter and direct the cutting all for much less than store-bought and get a higher quality product to boot!
Make no mistake, you cannot live without causing the death either intentional or indirectly of other animals, period. You may not eat them, but you still bring about their death by your mere existence.
In the society we live where everything is done for us (most of it completely unnecessary) that is very true. Nearly every product you buy in stores, be it hygienics, food, makeup, nearly everything we put in or on our body's is tested on animals. To not support animal death at all, you have to be a minimalist, live outside (or create a squat), steal/dumpster dive food, never pay for gasoline.
I try to steal (never from small, local company's, only from major corporations), dumpster dive, and walk everywhere (my bike got stolen) which is hard because I live four miles up from town. Living that kind of life when your in school is hard, but I do my best. I know I'm no poster child for non-consumerism, but I do my best not to buy a lot of unnecessary items. Its hard not to hurt something or someone when you purchase anything.
I think grilled vegan would taste pretty good.