Is it World War III

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tippster

No, they're not. They don't even claim to be, as they are a JEWISH state, and thus limit non-jews in their government to a few seats. In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuaous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is.

---

Fair enough. But then you get yourself into a logical trap. The whole purpose of Israel was to create a Jewish state. The UN agreed to this in 1949as a means to protect a large population of the Jewish people in lieu of a little thing called the Holocaust. Thus, if the Arab Israelis were allowed to vote it would dillute the very purposes of having a Jewish state (the same reasons why the Israelis would never agree to a right of return to Palestianians in the West Bank or Gaza). Perhaps my characterization of Israel as a TRUE democracy is a little off, but compared to the other countries in the region, they actually have representation and elections--not demagouges or tyrants as leaders.

CNN is also reporting that Hezbollah is trying to transfer the captured soldiers to the Iranians...

So it's OK to have a Jewish state in the Middle East but not a White state in Africa? Huh.

[QUOTE=Rontele]Fair enough. But then you get yourself into a logical trap. The whole purpose of Israel was to create a Jewish state. The UN agreed to this in 1949as a means to protect a large population of the Jewish people in lieu of a little thing called the Holocaust. Thus, if the Arab Israelis were allowed to vote it would dillute the very purposes of having a Jewish state (the same reasons why the Israelis would never agree to a right of return to Palestianians in the West Bank or Gaza)./QUOTE]

And this is why Israel will live in a perpetual state of war.

It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tippster

So it's OK to have a Jewish state in the Middle East but not a White state in Africa? Huh.

---

The last time I checked, the Israelis had a 5000 year claim to the Holy Land. That the Old Testament predates both Islam and Christianity. That seems to be a pretty valid claim. Whites in Africa were there because of imperialism. Plus your attempt at reasoning by analogy is faulty. Comparing apartheid South Africa to Israel superficially could make some sense as it seems a powerful group aiming to repress a smaller, weaker majority, but you continue to ignore history. It has been Israel's neighbors which have throughout history refused to recognize their existance--not the other way around.

And MassLiberal, I think that Israel would be content to stop waging war when its neighbors recognize its right to exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tippster

No, they're not. They don't even claim to be, as they are a JEWISH state, and thus limit non-jews in their government to a few seats. In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is.

---

This is so true. The talking heads on the tube and our government never state it this way. Even if the Arab Israelis didn't vote in one block, the country would totally change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CherryMoon

Indeed, your bias is quite apparent. Not surprised you can't see how Israeli policy at times can legitimately spit in the face of US government policy and pleas even when given the substantial aid. The fact that such a modern civilized democracy resorts to such disproportionate revengeful violence, ensuring the ongoing cycle, fercily angers many people around that region and the world. I also love the typical Israeli or Palestinian response to this situation: neither will admit guilt and can only point fingers. It seems you clearly don't understand "boar in a corner" mentality. Can you not see that Israel's "bully on the schoolground" tactics have not played out over the years in attempting to thwart your opponent?

Work on the reading comprehension: where do I insinuate that stopping aid to Israel due to their behavior placates Muslims and will result in less trouble from the ilk of Al Queda and terrorism? Yes, it would have little effect on US directed terrorism given our rich history in the M.E. No need to lecture me on your high horse of bull shit. But it is certiainly not unreasonable for tax payers to be upset over $ billions in aid to Israel when they behave the way they can and do. Our strong loop-sided financial relationship to a country frowned upon by many throughout the world for their part in ensuring a continous cycle is not something many Americans would miss.

And FWIW a very good Israeli (Russian) climbing friend of mine, who did his mandatory 3yr IDF in the mid-90's, is saying this current response is too strong a push for the current delicate balance. Is the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers legitimately worth the lives of minimum 47 "CIVILIAN" Lebanese and $10's of millions worth of civilian infrastructure damage? That's not a "symbol" you ignorant fuck, that's something that can re-light the entire area back into full scale war. But that's what you want, don't you?

---

I would say that the last thing I would want is a full scale war. But I do believe that Israel has the right to protect itself by whatever means the elected government chooses. You make valid points and inevitably this argument will continue like most other political arguments do on this board. People inevitably have opinions that they believe are true and will try their hardest to defend their positions. Not surprisingly, i don't expect to change your opinion and vice versa, while pragmatic about the situation, I don't expect you to change my opinion on the matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rontele

The last time I checked, the Israelis had a 5000 year claim to the Holy Land. That the Old Testament predates both Islam and Christianity. That seems to be a pretty valid claim.

---

:eek:

Given that a vast majority of Israeli's are immigrants - many 2nd and 3rd generation, but immigrants nonetheless I have difficulty seeing how their reliance on ancient texts is superior to the rights of people who's families were actually living there for many generations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cj001f

:eek:

Given that a vast majority of Israeli's are immigrants - many 2nd and 3rd generation, but immigrants nonetheless I have difficulty seeing how their reliance on ancient texts is superior to the rights of people who's families were actually living there for many generations.

---

Diaspora, Zionism, reinhabiting the Middle East, all valid points, but for thousands of years there was a Jewish state in Palestine.

I am going back to Sprocket Rockets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rontele

The last time I checked, the Israelis had a 5000 year claim to the Holy Land. That the Old Testament predates both Islam and Christianity. That seems to be a pretty valid claim. Whites in Africa were there because of imperialism. Plus your attempt at reasoning by analogy is faulty. Comparing apartheid South Africa to Israel superficially could make some sense as it seems a powerful group aiming to repress a smaller, weaker majority, but you continue to ignore history. It has been Israel's neighbors which have throughout history refused to recognize their existance--not the other way around.

And MassLiberal, I think that Israel would be content to stop waging war when its neighbors recognize its right to exist.

---

What a purile argument.

Zionism is rascism and breeds hatred, contempt and violence. Time for the whole area to stop considering people by their ethnicity or religon and treat each other as humans who can peacefully coexist. Impossible for that to happen while Israel claims to have some divine right to the land.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cj001f

:eek:

Given that a vast majority of Israeli's are immigrants - many 2nd and 3rd generation, but immigrants nonetheless I have difficulty seeing how their reliance on ancient texts is superior to the rights of people who's families were actually living there for many generations.

---

I think i'm right in saying that at the moment the majority of immigrants to Israel are actually converts to Judasim. Israel actively recruits such immigrants to boost it's otherwise shrinking population.

I wonder how a similar Palestinian policy would be regarded by Israel or it's apologists?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CherryMoon

And the flip-side of that coin: legitimate recognition of the Palestinian state, who democratically elect their "own" leadership?

---

I agree and if you read my earlier post you would have seen that I think the biggest losers are the Palestinain people.

But I do think that Israel has reason to be suspicious of Hamas' motives considering until recently the basic tenet underlying Hamas' existance has been the destruction of Israel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rontele

Diaspora, Zionism, reinhabiting the Middle East, all valid points, but for thousands of years there was a Jewish state in Palestine.

---

comeon, that's sophistry of the highest order - there hasn't been a Jewish state for millenia - and the archeological evidence (actual concrete evidence) is different than the theological evidence for the existance/history of states prior to the romans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skideeppow

FYI, It is a little more complex than that. Hamas is sunni based but still being used by Iran (a shiate muslim country) to destabize the region, as well as Syria, a sunni dominated country.
Hezbullah, is a shiate muslim faction which has direct ties to shiate Iran.
As you see in Iraq, Shiates and SUnni's hate each other almost as much as they hate the Jews.

---

This is a valuable post. Hezbollah IS traditionally an outlet for Iran's anti-Israel efforts, but the thing to remember is that Syria stands between Lebanon and Iran. THere is no transhipment of arms and material w/o a de facto approval from Damascus.

Tipp: I'd also like to know where you're getting that info on, cause you're pretty far off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

What a purile argument.

Zionism is rascism and breeds hatred, contempt and violence. Time for the whole area to stop considering people by their ethnicity or religon and treat each other as humans who can peacefully coexist. Impossible for that to happen while Israel claims to have some divine right to the land.

---

I also think that characterizing those who believe that there should be a Jewish state as "Zionists" is equally racist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cj001f

comeon, that's sophistry of the highest order - there hasn't been a Jewish state for millenia - and the archeological evidence (actual concrete evidence) is different than the theological evidence for the existance/history of states prior to the romans.

---

The western wall?

Ok, so we all have our viewpoints. But what does the international community do at the current juncture? Do we somehow step in to ensure war is not re-instated or watch silently as these people slaugther themselves? If so, how do we do that without stepping on toes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CherryMoon

Ok, so we all have our viewpoints. But what does the international community do at the current juncture? Do we somehow step in to ensure war is not re-instated or watch silently as these people slaugther themselves? If so, how do we do that without stepping on toes?

---

I guarantee you the US is pressuring the Israelis hard to not escalate the violence. The EU is probably working with the Lebanese, Syrians, and Iranians to ensure that there is no escalation on their side.

wheeeeee. This is even more inflammatory than abortion. Good god.

Ron, I don't doubt that Israelis are peace lovers, my point is that so long as the Israeli Arabs are treated as a second class, there will never be peace. No bloc of humanity enjoys being subjugated by a foreign (as perceived by the palestinians), peoples. Sure, the israelis have a historical claim to the land, and as a state, they have the right to exist. But they also need to act with a little bit of a lighter hand in their affairs. Their heavy responses may have been suitable in the 50' 60's and 70's, but not any more, they need to find a better path.

If you look at civilizations throughout history, this exact situation has been played out before, and the outcome was never brought about peacefully (usually they involed biblical plagues, ethnic cleansing, or never ending war).

Tipp: a quick run through Wikipedia shows that 17% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.

All of these folks can (and do) vote.

About 80% of them are Muslim.

They have 9 representatives in a 120 seat parliamentry body. Obviously, they don't have a fully proportional representation of their population, but then again black folks are ~10% of the U.S. population and they get ONE senator. Hispanics are just as underrepresented. Not justifying anything. Both systems could be better, but comparing Israel's politics to apartheid is way off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CherryMoon

Ok, so we all have our viewpoints. But what does the international community do at the current juncture? Do we somehow step in to ensure war is not re-instated or watch silently as these people slaugther themselves? If so, how do we do that without stepping on toes?

---

I hate to say it, but there really isn't that much we can do.

The Old Testament does not give Isreal a right to exist. The UN did, not god.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MassLiberal

wheeeeee. This is even more inflammatory than abortion. Good god.

Ron, I don't doubt that Israelis are peace lovers, my point is that so long as the Israeli Arabs are treated as a second class, there will never be peace. No bloc of humanity enjoys being subjugated by a foreign (as perceived by the palestinians), peoples. Sure, the israelis have a historical claim to the land, and as a state, they have the right to exist. But they also need to act with a little bit of a lighter hand in their affairs. Their heavy responses may have been suitable in the 50' 60's and 70's, but not any more, they need to find a better path.

If you look at civilizations throughout history, this exact situation has been played out before, and the outcome was never brought about peacefully (usually they involed biblical plagues, ethnic cleansing, or never ending war).

---

In defense of the Israelis they tried a less heavy handed approach in 1998 with the Road Map to peace that Arafat walked away from. From 2001 until now they have tried disengagement through a unilateral establishment of the border between palestine and israel (obviously an objectionable tactic). The problem is that from the ISraeli perspective they believe they have never had a partner on the other side willing to make the sacrifices necessary for peace.

What worries me is that how rational can expect Hezbollah to act in all of this considering WHO their backers are (Assad and Mullahs in Iran). That is most worriesome of this situation as we have no idea if they could or would yield to international diplomatic pressure to not escalate the situation if the US is correspondingly de-escalating the situation on the Israeli side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shamrockpow

Tipp: a quick run through Wikipedia shows that 17% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.

All of these folks can (and do) vote.

About 80% of them are Muslim.

They have 9 representatives in a 120 seat parliamentry body. Obviously, they don't have a fully proportional representation of their population, but then again black folks are ~10% of the U.S. population and they get ONE senator. Hispanics are just as underrepresented. Not justifying anything. Both systems could be better, but comparing Israel's politics to apartheid is way off.

---

If you include the populations of the Gaza Strip & West Bank - areas under de facto Israeli control - the numbers are closer to Tipps

Yes, but I would also point to the fact that the greatest hope for peace existed during the Camp David period. Rabin brought hope for peace, untile he was assisinated by an extremist israeli, and Arafat walked away from the accords because he would have become irrelevant. Why not try and return to that era?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iceman

...everybody knows (or they should know) that it takes more amps to start something than it does to keep it going.

---

Totally pointless electro-geek aside: Not amps, but volts. The threashold is called the "breakdown voltage", and yes, it takes a higher voltage to start current flow than it does to keep it going. Arc welding is a great demo of this effect in action.
Voltage is analogous to PSI/water preasure vs Amps which is like GPM/volume per second of flow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MassLiberal

Yes, but I would also point to the fact that the greatest hope for peace existed during the Camp David period. Rabin brought hope for peace, untile he was assisinated by an extremist israeli, and Arafat walked away from the accords because he would have become irrelevant. Why not try and return to that era?

---

Because unfortunately I do not think the Israelis believe that the Palestinians are committed to a peaceful resolution when they elect Hamas as their government.

And you hit the nail on the head, Arafat walked away because he would have become irrelevant. Underscores that the Palestinian people have probably NEVER have had anyone look out for their interests. Just power hunger demagouges or idealogues intersted in preserving their own power. Sad story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shamrockpow

Tipp: I'd also like to know where you're getting that info on, cause you're pretty far off.

---

Which Info?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cj001f

If you include the populations of the Gaza Strip & West Bank - areas under de facto Israeli control - the numbers are closer to Tipps

---

The areas that just had their own elections and which Israel has given up annexing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shamrockpow

The areas that just had their own elections and which Israel has given up annexing?

---

Whose elections Isreal refuses to support on the basis that their preferred candidate didn't win?

edg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tippster

No, they're not. They don't even claim to be, as they are a JEWISH state, and thus limit non-jews in their government to a few seats. In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is.

---

Complete nonsense. This is not true, and is rather demeaning to those who actually did live under apartheid.
Israeli Arabs vote and have the same rights guaranteed to Jewish citizens, except for compulsory military service, although some do serve.
It's funny (but maybe not unexpected) that everyone squawks about the rights of Arabs in Israel, where they actually do have guaranteed rights, but no one ever refers to the rights of Jews in Arab countries (aside from their all too clear right to suffer and be killed/expelled).

Another irony to all this is that Israeli Arabs in general have more rights and better civil rights protections than their counterparts in Arab countries, which are almost uniformly monarchic dictatorships. To wit:

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's ambassador to Finland and the current deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon's original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by edg

Whose elections Isreal refuses to support on the basis that their preferred candidate didn't win?

edg

---

What are you talking about? Israel didn't impede the elections, but saying they should support Hamas is like saying we should support the Taliban because that's what the Afghans wanted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tippster

Which Info?

---

"In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is."

Arab-Israelis have also won the Miss Israel competition and their version of American Idol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cj001f

:eek:

Given that a vast majority of Israeli's are immigrants - many 2nd and 3rd generation, but immigrants nonetheless I have difficulty seeing how their reliance on ancient texts is superior to the rights of people who's families were actually living there for many generations.

---

2nd and 3rd generation, by definition, are not immigrants.
Jews have lived in Israel for hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of years. Someone put up a text earlier stating that Jews started coming in 1947, but that's completely wrong. I wouldn't rely on Biblical texts, but to imply that Israel's claim to its land is somehow illegitimate is ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shamrockpow

Tipp: a quick run through Wikipedia shows that 17% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.

All of these folks can (and do) vote.

About 80% of them are Muslim.

They have 9 representatives in a 120 seat parliamentry body. Obviously, they don't have a fully proportional representation of their population, but then again black folks are ~10% of the U.S. population and they get ONE senator. Hispanics are just as underrepresented. Not justifying anything. Both systems could be better, but comparing Israel's politics to apartheid is way off.

---

Dude - the skewing factor in this argument are all the folks NOT considered full citizens, but guest laborers, etc. These are families whose roots in the area are far older than the existence of Israel.

Of course you're only going to have a small percentage of "citizens" in a state meant to exclude them from government.

BTW - I get my info from working directly with Palestinians, Lebanese, and Israelis. I also get my information by reading multiple news sources, conducting interviews of the involved parties, and making a (hopefully) reasoned conclusion on my own.

And identifying those who support the State of Israel as Zionists isn't "racist" at all. It has as much to do with race as "republicans" do with religion.

Quote:

---

Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish national homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shamrockpow

"In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is."

---

Sorry - I replied before reading on...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

What are you talking about? Israel didn't impede the elections, but saying they should support Hamas is like saying we should support the Taliban because that's what the Afghans wanted.

---

What am I talking about? Show me where, in that simple sentence, I said that Isreal impeded the elections in Palestine? No, instead, once the winner was (inevitably) an anti-isreali party, they have chosen not to recognize the victory.

edg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

2nd and 3rd generation, by definition, are not immigrants.
Jews have lived in Israel for hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of years. Someone put up a text earlier stating that Jews started coming in 1947, but that's completely wrong. I wouldn't rely on Biblical texts, but to imply that Israel's claim to its land is somehow illegitimate is ridiculous.

---

To be fair, Palestine was not very heavily populated by Jews prior to 1900. That said, there were over half a million Jews in the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt all had sizable populations) total and they formed the basis of about half the Israeli population in 1948. Jews were not welcomed in their former homes, Arabs (who had fled) were not welcomed back to Israel. Neither side is "right", but to argue that Israel is equivalent to S. Africa or clearly holds the low ground seems silly.

Just seeing how many times I can post on one page. Nothing to see here.

(Dex - didn't you & I have this discussion in a Bar on the UWS? :D )

I'm in an intensive Arabic course at LAU.

Gotta say, I love this city - its a lot of fun when its not falling apart at the seams...but holy shit, this is more than I ever bargained for.

Don't have time to read the whole debate here, but yeah, the attacks on electricity and H2O would be a bit dubious if they went after the North and Beirut itself. Hizb'allah benefits from a lot of that infrastructure further south and in many cases actually owns and provides the utilities ("all your utilities courtesy of the Party of God" - helps with public relations I guess) to the public dirt cheap. :rolleyes:
As far as I see it, both sides are retarded, and calling for the Lebanese government to crack down with their own military (if you can even call it that) is ridiculous. This state (or failed state) is held together by a thread, and some people like their scissors a bit too much...

That's about it for now from West Beirut. Take it easy all.

Oh, and Splat, I'm rocking my FKNA t shirt right now...gotta represent, right?
Haha. Sorry, trying to keep the mood light here. :D