The Red Scare continues.

Cono Este:

I definintely have not labeled you as a neocon. In fact, I find that we tend to agree on a fair number of things.

But presently, the far right has taken control of the Republican party, and they tend to preach abstinence only education, outright banning of abortion, and restrictions on access to birth control, which, in my opinion, is the most ignorant and irresponsible trifecta there can possibly be in ANY society. Just wishing that children remain celibate doesn't necessarily make it so.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Fine, then distribute free condoms in High Schools.

Didn't think so.

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Then you thought wrong. I, for one, am decidedly pro.

Not you, bro -- the SD Legislature.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Not you, bro -- the SD Legislature.

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abstintance is perfect birth control, and the perfect birth control system. Their's just no functioning abstinance only birth control country because nobody's implemented one yet. It's not the system, it's the implementation :rolleyes:

And, seeing it goes against the most fundamental urge in nature besides eating and breathing, I don't hold high hopes for success.

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

Yes, and that's why conservatives don't want to teach kids about contraception, and embrace abstinence only education.

once again, the right wing makes no sense.

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I'm apparantly one of those conservatives you are making huge generalizations about. Look, many kids are going to have sex and I agree that protection and contraception needs to be taught. What really grates me, though, are those who oppose ANY sort of abstinence education. It's as if some people believe than NOBODY waits until marriage.

I'm making myself very vulnerable here but I need to make this point. Both my wife and myself both saved ourselves for marriage. We both grew up holding true to a notion that saving ourselves for our future partner makes a bond uncomparable. Almost all of my closest friends (and spouses) share the same story.

None of us regret it and there are practical aspects to this decision as well (i.e. No worries of STD, unplanned pregancies, or comparisons in bed)... and let me tell you, a wedding night that made the wait worth it 100 fold:FIREdevil

Now, I'm not sharing this to come across preachy. But I often hear how "everybody does it anyway", "abstinence is a myth like the sasquatch" is very offending. Every one of my siblings made the same decision as I did.

No, we are not backwoods geeks that live in a time warp. We are the same ski loving, poker playing, extreme sports, all-state athlete, party-having folks as the rest of you.

We need balance, balance and balance. Teach protection for those who are still going to engage, but also encourage those who want to save themselves for one partner. It IS the safest answer to these issues we're discussing.

Ok, let the target practice begin on me:fm:

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Originally Posted by Greydon Clark

Ya’ll are a bunch of baby killers who hate Jesus and America.

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Originally Posted by Magnoe

I agree. Heaven forbid we have a society that protects the unborn.

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I think magnoe wins the prize for most seriously damaged sarcasm meter ever on tgr.
It was really "cordial" of you to agree with that statement. :rolleyes:

The lack of a rape or incest exception in the SD law is fucking medieval.

Dude, I think you misunderstand, why would I make fun of you for a decision that's yours to make? If you feel that the decision you made was right, then it is yours.

But what I don't agree with is when counties, states or the gov't in general dictate that children are not able to handle honest discussions about sex. It's naive to think that everyone thinks the same way you do. And in general abstinence only education relies on deliberate falsehoods in order to scare kids into waiting for marraige.

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Originally Posted by Magnoe

What really grates me, though, are those who oppose ANY sort of abstinence education. It's as if some people believe than NOBODY waits until marriage.

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I have never heard of any group opposing abstinence education. I have heard of groups pushing "abstinence only" education and groups who oppose that stance. I don't think it's only christians that encourage their kids to not be ho bags? but maybe I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by natty dread

I think magnoe wins the prize for most seriously damaged sarcasm meter ever on tgr.
It was really "cordial" of you to agree with that statement. :rolleyes:

The lack of a rape or incest exception in the SD law is fucking medieval.

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Natty,
At that point in the thread, nobody has brought up any other angle so I thought I would get the ball rolling... which it did.

Sarcasm isn't my first choice in a discussion. It's fairly juvenile utilizing saracasm to make a point. But I did:p

Good for you. Here's a cookie.

Nobody - NOBODY on the Pro Choice side says "THOU MUST FUCK." That's the hubris of the Christian Right, that it's their way or Satan's railroad straight to hell. The problem is that they expect people to practice abstinence because "it's the right thing to do." That's bullshit. Abstinence, like any social activity, is a choice. Simply because one party choses differently from another doesn't make them WRONG, and thus shouldn't be legislated against. Not one single proposal for sex education at any level has ever tried to exclude abstinence. It's actually the first thing taught, but since there's not much to talk about after "If you don't have sexual contact of any kind you cannot get pregnant or STDs" the rest of the syllabus concentrates on the myriad of things that can happen if you chose the other path.

What your side wants is legislative and social support for something only practiced by a minority of people. To claim you're in the mainstream sexually or morally is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Cyber Cop

I have never heard of any group opposing abstinence education. I have heard of groups pushing "abstinence only" education and groups who oppose that stance. I don't think it's only christians that encourage their kids to not be ho bags? but maybe I'm wrong.

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I'm on the board for a non-profit that works with counseling kids on high school campuses as well as juvenile detention facilities. It is amazing the opposition we receive to offer abstinence as a legitimate alternative when it comes to sex education. It's out there.

And I'm glad to hear your responses. Again, the attitude that abstinence is not even an option is the crux of my frustration. Protection AND abstinence should both be presented as viable options for kids.

I do love how not a singe woman has posted on this thread yet (or so I think).

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Originally Posted by Magnoe

No, we are not backwoods geeks that live in a time warp. We are the same ski loving, poker playing, extreme sports, all-state athlete, party-having folks as the rest of you.

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^Keep on telling yourself that ^

Face it magnoe, you represent the extreme religious right wing view on this issue. You may party, ski, and play poker but you are the only person in this thread (or, I would guess, in this forum) who would like to make it illegal for a girl who has been raped to end her pregnancy.

How about free condoms in the schools, along with teaching that abstinence is the only 100% sure way to protect against pregnancy? You still haven't answered that question.

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Originally Posted by Magnoe

Again, the attitude that abstinence is not even an option is the crux of my frustration.

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Kids who are well raised and unconditionally loved are far more likely to go the abstinence route.

What about teens who never had good parenting and/or come from broken homes, or suffered other childhood tramas? They're going to find fulfillment wherever they can. Magnoe, what's your experience with kids in this latter group?

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Not you, bro -- the SD Legislature.

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Didn't I mention -- I'm also the South Dakota Legislature incarnate? Both houses, no less.

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Originally Posted by alpinedad

Didn't I mention -- I'm also the South Dakota Legislature incarnate? Both houses, no less.

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Damn, you must look funny naked?:FIREdevil

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Originally Posted by natty dread

but you are the only person in this thread (or, I would guess, in this forum) who would like to make it illegal for a girl who has been raped to end her pregnancy.

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No, not the only one. If, for whatever reason, a pregnancy makes it past the 24th week. I would be opposed to ending it(and willing to put that into law) with only one exception; the life of the mother is in grave danger. Regardless of how that life came about. See post #99. That's where I draw the line.

No brain activity=mass of tissue. It's the womans choice up that point.

Brain activity=human being with all the rights you and I have.

So, under certain circumstances, I would be opposed to ending a pregnancy that came about by rape or incest. But I know I am in a minority and others feel differently.

His ass is HUGE.

I also agree with Meatpuppet. You should be able to tell within the first 6 months (I'd even go less) whether or not you should keep the baby. After that it better be a life-or-death issue for the mother. Cold feet aren't an excuse, and adoption is then the path to choose IMHO.

Then again I absolutely support the death penalty for serial killers, and especially the animals who rape and kill children. I'll pull the trigger myself and sleep soundly that night.

Magone, i think natty is just rubbing it in that he has lots of pre-marrital sex and you didn't. ;)

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

No brain activity=mass of tissue. It's the womans choice up that point.

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I don't think magnoe would agree with you on that point, but he can correct me if I'm wrong. That's what makes him a right wing extremist. Your position is more nuanced and acknowledges that there are shades of grey in this debate.

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Originally Posted by Crinkle

Magone, i think natty is just rubbing it in that he has lots of pre-marrital sex and you didn't. ;)

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How dare you judge me like that? I stopped being a slut WEEKS ago. ;)

Pretty much high school and college are where good girls learn skills!
I mean, all of you except the chump who 'believes' his wife waited for only him...don't you all remember some damn good times, instructing, and being instructed, in the finer arts?
I sure do, and do not regret it.

IMO, abortion is simply one more tool that we have to fight the true, single problem that our planet faces, and will probably be our ruin...OVERPOPULATION.

ahh, college...yum yum good times!

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Originally Posted by rideit

the true, single problem that our planet faces, and will probably be our ruin...OVERPOPULATION.

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BAAHHHH! Over population my ass(and I assure you it's not as gargantuan as Cyber Cop's communal ass).:p There are 8 million people crammed into a couple of square miles in NYC; it's one of the most densly populated places on the planet, yet we don't have mass famine in the streets on Manhattan. Our problems come from poor managment, not overpopulation.

But that is a conversation for another thread.:biggrin:

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

There are 8 million people crammed into a couple of square miles in NYC; it's one of the most densly populated places on the planet, yet we don't have mass famine in the streets on Manhattan. Our problems come from poor managment, not overpopulation.

:

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key word: YET.

I'm taking your tone to mean "Meatpuppet didn't get any in high school, and he is still pissed!":FIREdevil

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

It's crazy how they wasted no time. Once Alito was confirmed, they went for the jugular.

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It will be interesting to see which way Alito will vote on this issue. He may prove to be a big disappointment to the right wing extremists. While it is true that Alito has a history which suggests that he is in favor of restricting and/or eventually overturning Roe v. Wade, he has yet to build a reputation on the Supreme Court. One never knows...

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

BAAHHHH! Over population my ass(and I assure you it's not as gargantuan as Cyber Cop's communal ass).:p There are 8 million people crammed into a couple of square miles in NYC; it's one of the most densly populated places on the planet, yet we don't have mass famine in the streets on Manhattan. Our problems come from poor managment, not overpopulation.

But that is a conversation for another thread.:biggrin:

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One of the richest cities in the world doesn't have a problem with famine? Will wonders never cease :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by MassLiberal

I do love how not a singe woman has posted on this thread yet (or so I think).

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Because you guys can fight it out, splitting hairs all you want and it doesn't mean a damn thing.

No woman is relying on abortion as birth control. If you knew the mechanics of abortion, you'd know that without debate. Abortion is a last resort, because the social safety net is not there for mothers who cannot raise the child.

It's easy to talk about a 40 week commitment and a six week + recovery that you don't have to make yourselves. Plus at least 6 months of everyone you meet knowing you're sexually active - not an issue for adults but certainly a big one for younger women where social stigma on sexual activity is still strong. Girls under 18 who have family friends and uncles that want to be lovers, and press the advantage of age and experience are in a different boat - how do they explain the situation to family? What happens if pops raped you and mom doesn't believe you? Rape and incest are more common than you might want to believe or admit. Single working women face being fired, even married women in certain professions have been fired for one pregnancy too many.

So many men beg to ride free of the jimmy hat, but you can because you don't have to deal quite as directly with the consequences. Women have later term abortions because they've exhausted their other options, and not because they're lazy or stupid as some have implied.

Back in the days of the writing of the much vaulted constitution, abortion was legal although perilous. It was easier to drink pennyroyal tea, pray for a miscarriage and worry about liver damage later. I know that an abortion is not a choice I would make personally, but I support the right to having a choice.

True choice means a medically safe option ...
-without being harassed and called a baby killer on the way to an already hard decision.
-without notifying parents, husbands or boyfriends, who if they don't already know, are probably not supportive.
-without having to travel hundreds of miles and paying exorbitant fees.
-in complete privacy.

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Originally Posted by cj001f

One of the richest cities in the world doesn't have a problem with famine? Will wonders never cease :rolleyes:

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Nope, neither does Hong Kong, nor does Tokyo; places that have similar population densities.

It goes to illustrate what the source of the problem really is, and is not.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Nope, neither does Hong Kong, nor does Tokyo; places that have similar population densities.

.

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And wealth distributions.
Uhh, Lima, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, LaHore, North Korea, San Jose, Bangladesh, uhhh...just enter a few more.

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Originally Posted by rideit

key word: YET.

I'm taking your tone to mean "Meatpuppet didn't get any in high school, and he is still pissed!":FIREdevil

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LOL! My HS sex life(or lack there of...) is non of your damn business! :the_finge :the_finge :the_finge


:D











Edit: Top page biatches!

I'm glad that a woman has finally voiced her opinion. It is also interesting that it is the most nuanced one of the thread so far.

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

(and I assure you it's not as gargantuan as Cyber Cop's communal ass).:p But that is a conversation for another thread.:biggrin:

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When will the skinny white kids finally figure out the chicks dig a well proportioned ass.:cool:

Werd, Tracy. Having been on the support end of 2 abortions (driving to and paying for) I can second the statement that no woman goes through that lightly. That had to be the worst waiting room ever.

BTW - drop the overpopulation argument. It's insipid. The countries where the population pressures are greatest need contraception and family counseling in general, not merely abortion services.

Tippster, I'm right there with you on that one.

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Originally Posted by rideit

And wealth distributions.
Uhh, Lima, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, LaHore, North Korea, San Jose, Bangladesh, uhhh...just enter a few more.

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Very true. Those who are wealthy have more options and have access to a better life. I do not believe that they should be punished for their success. Nor should they have their wealth(or any part of it) taken from them and redistributed to those who are not as wealthy.


The "poor" as we see them today have been the norm throughout human history. Because a large number of people have been able to escape that survival oriented lifestyle in recent times shouldn't make them the villians or in some way responsible for the "poor". It would speak well of the "wealthy" if they attempted to help the poor, but that should be a personal choice.

Class envy is rampant and very distructive.:nonono2:

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Very true. Those who are wealthy have more options and have access to a better life. I do not believe that they should be punished for their success. Nor should they have their wealth(or any part of it) taken from them and redistributed to those who are not as wealthy.


The "poor" as we see them today have been the norm throughout human history. Because a large number of people have been able to escape that survival oriented lifestyle in recent times shouldn't make them the villians or in some way responsible for the "poor". It would speak well of the "wealthy" if they attempted to help the poor, but that should be a personal choice.

Class envy is rampant and very distructive.:nonono2:

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What about the vast fortunes made from the labor of the poor? I guess the common laboror has no role in generating wealth? Yes, the CEO "Earned" that 20 mil.?

Check this out as concerns wealth distribution. http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...shots_05272004

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Originally Posted by Tippster

BTW - drop the overpopulation argument. It's insipid. The countries where the population pressures are greatest need contraception and family counseling in general, not merely abortion services.

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Instead the U.S. now cuts finance to programmes promoting contraception for both family planning purposes and AIDS prevention and puts it's support behind abstinence education for the third world:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/globali..._aids_3078.jsp
http://www.guardian.co.uk/brazil/sto...475966,00.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/06/usdom10432.htm

Dear Religous right,

if we agreed with your morals we'd adopt them. Please don't try and legislate us into them.

signed
everyone else

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Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Very true. Those who are wealthy have more options and have access to a better life. I do not believe that they should be punished for their success. Nor should they have their wealth(or any part of it) taken from them and redistributed to those who are not as wealthy.


The "poor" as we see them today have been the norm throughout human history. Because a large number of people have been able to escape that survival oriented lifestyle in recent times shouldn't make them the villians or in some way responsible for the "poor". It would speak well of the "wealthy" if they attempted to help the poor, but that should be a personal choice.

Class envy is rampant and very distructive.:nonono2:

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Because "it has always been that way" doesn't make it right. How can you claim to care so much for a single life that has yet to even begin, and in the same breath so callously dismiss the horrendous suffering of millions of already living people? Unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by Cyber Cop

What about the vast fortunes made from the labor of the poor? I guess the common laboror has no role in generating wealth? Yes, the CEO "Earned" that 20 mil.?

Check this out as concerns wealth distribution. http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...shots_05272004

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One thing i have learned in my last two years in New York is even the rich earn their wealth. You don't have to be working a forklift or be a factory worker, farmer etc. If anything many of these guys that clock in at 8 and leave at 5 work much less than then the "wealthy" CEOs, bankers lawyers and white collar jobs that some of you like to rag on.