Michael Moore

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07-13-2007, 02:25 PM
avacadotoast

A national health insurance system can pay hospitals and Doctors the same $$ and save small employers 20-30% on their healtchcare...probably more. It's all about the layers of fat and the inefficient administration due to the fragmented setup within the system. It NEEDS to change - though there will be a lot of people that currently make money off of this fat...like insurance brokers....and me...that will need to look for other work. I wouldn't mind.

and how some businesses can NOT pay for their employees iunurance, knowing that they can become a burden on the system and cause others who actually do pay into the system to pay more...well, I find it rather disgusting.

Medicare for all bitches!!! (with a few tweaks...the infrastructure is there)

Meat Puppet, you really have no idea...not having adequate health insurance for 100 million people creates a vacuum that increases the number crisis events in those people that can't pay for care. They get this crisis care anyway (many times too late), which probably increases the overall costs. These peoples care needs to be paid for by someone so in the end so those costs get passed off to employers that pay into the system...this is how it works, now tell me it doesn't need to change. A one payor national healthcare system can only create a more fair playing field for all and a system that rewards postive health outcomes and long term savings (ie cures over cash cow drugs) over short term profits can only make us better.

It is a complex web we've weaved by waiting this long to change the system. Anyone know how Massachussets' required health insurance thing is working out??
07-13-2007, 02:26 PM
woodstocksez

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj001f

bureaucrats are a part of society. If you have doctors acting as bureaucrats they are bureaucrats, not doctors

Yes, I see your point. How about if you have bureaucrats acting as doctors? What then? A full house at the Holiday Inn Express?
07-13-2007, 02:27 PM
MeatPuppet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj001f

bureaucrats are a part of society. If you have doctors acting as bureaucrats they are bureaucrats, not doctors

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corky

A national health insurance system can pay...

Meat Puppet, you really have no idea...this is how it works, now tell me it doesn't need to change.

I'm not saying the system we have today is good, or that it should stay as it is. But whatever ills our system has, the answer is not "let the federal government take over".

Would you be opposed to a state run health care system, rather than a federally run system?
07-13-2007, 02:34 PM
avacadotoast

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

I'm not saying the system we have today is good, or that it should stay as it is. But whatever ills our system has, the answer is not "let the federal government take over".

So let's call it a company...and we won't call it a tax, we'll call it premium. All they do is PAY FUCKING CLAIMS, who cares. It's not going to make your doctor any slower. Seriousloy though, through pure economies of scale there is no way that the gov't can administer this insurance without a savings from the largest insurer out there.
07-13-2007, 02:37 PM
Jer

Quote:

Originally Posted by focus

The denigrating comments re: Mr. Moore are pretty similar to those hurled at Al Gore and his lifestyle. Unfortunately, these comments have jack shit to do with the vailidity of the points these gentlemen raise.

Yeah - only if you're a fucking moron. I have a really hard time listening to people who don't practice what they preach. Al Gore screams on and on about GLOBALWARMING, yet his carbon footprint is bigger than Canada. Oh - but that's ok because he's the messiah of the new GLOBAL WARMING religion. Michael Moore makes a "documentary" about how evil the Capitalist Pig Amerika Healthcare system is, yet he's a walking healthcare disaster and a millionairre capitalist. Oh - but that's ok because he's just a regular Joe fighting for the rights of the common man. I think that the Earth may very well be getting warmer and I also think there's room for improvement with US healthcare. But I also think MM and AG are complete douchebags. And MM is really fat.
07-13-2007, 02:41 PM
Jer

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayaktheworld

Yeah, Michael Moore is fat. I'm sure he knows it, we all know it, it doesn't really make a difference. Fat people can be intelligent and have opinions too.

On the otherhand, those of you who criticize him only attack him personally, by far being more rude and condescending than he is.

So anyway, what did you all actually find wrong with the OPINIONS expressed in the MOVIE? We all know how fat he is so you guys don't need to tell us that along with other disgusting insults.

Hey genius - the OP was about how disgustingly fat Michael Moore is. Get over it. Dude's really fat. What - are you his boyfriend or something?
07-13-2007, 02:42 PM
woodstocksez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jer

And MM is really fat.

Just so people won't think Jer is being vicious and unfair, that would be OK if he were a ski, correct Jer?
07-13-2007, 02:44 PM
avacadotoast

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Would you be opposed to a state run health care system, rather than a federally run system?

Yeah, because I live in Nevada and our hospitals are shit.
Seriosuly though the benefits (financial and care quality) of having all claims and care management in one place are enormous.

Look old people have medicare. That is national health insurance. Most doctors get paid a decent amount under medicare - some complain (it's not the best reimbursment formula). Medicares does like to leave the medical managment (and risk) on to private insurers but that's only for some 40% of medicare enrollees (the rest enroll direct). Medicare's costs are not nearly as high as you would expect for an >65 or disabled population (think $600-$700 a month per member iirc).

Jer, I'm skinny...will you listen to me??

For the record I'm actually for the most communistic approach to healthcare. I can go on forever about things I'd like to see but will probably never happen.
07-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Free Range Lobster

Jer is just jealous that he can't make millions like Michael Moore can running his mouth.
07-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Jer

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodstocksez

Just so people won't think Jer is being vicious and unfair, that would be OK if he were a ski, correct Jer?

No. He would be three times as wide as a Fattypuss Alotta. I like fat skis, but that's just ridiculous.
07-13-2007, 02:51 PM
MeatPuppet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corky

So let's call it a company...and we won't call it a tax, we'll call it premium. All they do is PAY FUCKING CLAIMS, who cares. It's not going to make your doctor any slower.

OK, setting my stodgy principles of limited government aside; is there anyplace in the world with a socialized health care system that provides better care to it's patients than we do, today?

All I hear about is long waiting lists for simple surgeries in places like Canada and France. Sure, you are guaranteed health care if you live there, but it might take two years for them to get to you. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me.
07-13-2007, 02:53 PM
Free Range Lobster

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

All I hear about is long waiting lists for simple surgeries in places like Canada and France.

Go to either place, get medical care yourself, come back, shut the fuck up.

Simple solution to your hearing problems.
07-13-2007, 02:54 PM
PNWbrit

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

Would you be opposed to a state run health care system, rather than a federally run system?

So instead of having one federal office full of bureaucrats buying the nation it's socialist tongue depressors by the billion we have 50 different offices only they buy them by the million.

Seems way more efficient to me :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

All I hear about is long waiting lists.

You listen to the wrong sources and spout about stuff you nothing about. Even after being repeatedly bitch slapped with your own stupidity and called out over your crass disregard for others.
07-13-2007, 02:56 PM
Jer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Range Lobster

shut the fuck up.

This is a great arguement.

Michael Moore is fat. Really fat.
07-13-2007, 02:57 PM
Free Range Lobster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jer

This is a great arguement.

Michael Moore is fat. Really fat.

And he gets paid to run his mouth, you forgot that.
07-13-2007, 02:59 PM
cj001f

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

All I hear about is long waiting lists for simple surgeries in places like Canada and France. Sure, you are guaranteed health care if you live there, but it might take two years for them to get to you. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me.

You forgot the "if you can pay for it here" part

if you aren't willing to wait overseas you can pay for it and get it quickly too
07-13-2007, 02:59 PM
woodstocksez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jer

No. He would be three times as wide as a Fattypuss Alotta. I like fat skis, but that's just ridiculous.

Hmmm. The other problem, of course, is that the graphics would be vile. OK, so I guess Michael Moore doesn't work as a ski, either.
07-13-2007, 03:02 PM
MeatPuppet

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

So instead of having one federal office full of bureaucrats buying the nation it's socialist tongue depressors by the billion we have 50 different offices only they buy them by the million.

Seems way more efficient to me :rolleyes:

It's all about local control and the ability to opt out(move to a different state). Two things you don't have with the federal gov. At least on the local level you have the chance of some accountability.

Silly me, I'm a big states rights guy. I actually believe the 10th amendment when it said:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Quote:

You listen to the wrong sources and spout about stuff you nothing about.

Just one of many, many examples I have heard about.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...49&postcount=1
07-13-2007, 03:03 PM
PNWbrit

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj001f

if you aren't willing to wait overseas you can pay for it and get it quickly too

Oh bad form old chap.

You've applied the coup de grâce way to early. He still had a lot more fight in him.
07-13-2007, 03:04 PM
Free Range Lobster

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Oh bad form old chap.

You've applied the coup de grâce way to early. He still had a lot more fight in him.

And I just got here with bile and nasty comments!
He has to go and close the door. :nonono2:
07-13-2007, 03:08 PM
avacadotoast

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatPuppet

All I hear about is long waiting lists for simple surgeries in places like Canada and France. Sure, you are guaranteed health care if you live there, but it might take two years for them to get to you. This doesn't sound like an improvement to me.

Call a specialist right now...any one will do. when is their first available appointment??

Waiting times would be the function of the number of Doctors and efficiency of the healthcare facility you are dealing with. it has nothing to do with the entity that would pay your claims or collect your premium. If we use a fee-for-service system and not a salary based system for docs all the sam incentives to crank through patients would still be there. Now if we don't pay doctors enough then that would probably lower the number of doctors which could increase wait times...we won't let that happen.

Perhaps since more people will have access to regular care then perhaps waits would increase for normal stuff. But ERs that deal with those that have no insurance would likely have less waits. Simple solution, pay for medical school for the best and brightest. perhaps create shorter more specialized programs (like PAs) for certain specialties - I dunno. Rewarding docs that achieve the best outcomes is a necessity too.

Look there are ways to do this and do it to save money and make care better. It is a huge leap that scares a lot of people though. Change is automatically bad if you are one of the beneficiarys of the current system.

edit - to make some paragraphs
07-13-2007, 03:11 PM
Jer

I still say he's fat. I stand by my words.
07-13-2007, 03:26 PM
Free Range Lobster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corky

Call a specialist right now... and other stuff that people should know about but have their heads so far up their libertarian/republican collective assholes that they wouldn't know it.

Whoah there buddy, are you saying that the media, and the lobbyists that feed the media are...

A: not giving us the whole truth.
B: straight up lying?

Who would have thought?
07-13-2007, 03:32 PM
pappag

It's most likely been stated already, but just saw this thread.

Anyways, obesity costs the health care system $100 billion per year. Sure, that statistic isn't entirely relevant to Moore pointing out what he thinks is wrong with the system. But rather, he is in fact contributing to the problem by remaining in his lardness matter for such an extended period of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stupendous man

This makes utterly no sense. Why are you typing? He's not arguing for the best way to take care of your personal health, he's deconstructing a system that is designed to put profit above your personal health.
07-13-2007, 03:33 PM
MeatPuppet

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj001f

You forgot the "if you can pay for it here" part

if you aren't willing to wait overseas you can pay for it and get it quickly too

If you could pay for it over there, you could pay for it here. So those who can do that are not the people who are the catalyst for this debate. So that fact has no relevance to this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PNWbrit

Oh bad form old chap.

You've applied the coup de grâce way to early.

As usual, you are way to quick to pull that out.

Heterodoxy is healthy. Debate is healthy.

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