50 years to the day

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10-23-2023, 11:00 AM
mcphee

It almost as if shutting the fuck up is illegal for you.
10-23-2023, 11:01 AM
JimmyCarter

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

They ABSOLUTELY would if they ran around some Muslim villages, murdering, raping, and pillaging in the name of Jesus, and yes, attacks like Hamas just did absolutely WOULD justify counter-attacks like that. But that's not the case now, is it? Don't even try and equate Christians imposing doctrine at state level to Hamas attacks. WTF?

So if they did you’d be fine with the indiscriminate bombing of all Christian churches because those people are actively supporting the bad ones right?
10-23-2023, 11:14 AM
LongShortLong

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

So what should the North American tribes do about that in the year 2023? Get back to the good ol days of Comanche style raiding parties like it's 1840?

You're really close to getting it. Israel is at 1840 with the raiding parties. Or maybe 1800 or 1720 (1720 being few a decades after King Philip's failed war to push the colonials into the sea?). I'm arguing they shouldn't repeat the American genocide, and that there are many parallels, including similar injustices, and similar power dynamics. Surely, Israel could try the genocide route, and in a few hundred years, the Arabs of that region might be like the indigenous of America - mostly killed off and mostly marginalized.

The colonialism dynamic is not the only dynamic at play. It's one of many.
10-23-2023, 11:18 AM
Cono Este

I love you guys have no respect for Montucky, the only guy with any real experience, in the middle East, outside of Wikipedia.

The only one of us who risked anything. You should all be college professors.
10-23-2023, 11:24 AM
mcphee

War profiteering for an oil company is ME politics and policy experience?
10-23-2023, 11:24 AM
MontuckyFried

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cono Este

I love you guys have no respect for Montucky, the only guy with any real experience, in the middle East, outside of Wikipedia.

Haha. For real. BUT in all fairness, MagnificentUnicorn's been around the region all the same. We just ended up with differing perspectives on it is all. And that's fine. We're all entitled to our own opinions.
10-23-2023, 11:25 AM
mcphee

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongShortLong

You're really close to getting it. Israel is at 1840 with the raiding parties. Or maybe 1800 or 1720 (1720 being few a decades after King Philip's failed war to push the colonials into the sea?). I'm arguing they shouldn't repeat the American genocide, and that there are many parallels, including similar injustices, and similar power dynamics. Surely, Israel could try the genocide route, and in a few hundred years, the Arabs of that region might be like the indigenous of America - mostly killed off and mostly marginalized.

And the colonialism dynamic is not the only dynamic at play. It's one of many.

You should also shut da fuq up.
10-23-2023, 11:30 AM
MontuckyFried

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyCarter

So if they did you’d be fine with the indiscriminate bombing of all Christian churches because those people are actively supporting the bad ones right?

Umm, who said anything about "indiscriminate"? Using that word suggests that they're just carpet bombing the place for shits and giggles. They at least attempt to be pretty precise with their targets. Nothing indiscriminate about that.

And who here is suggesting the indiscriminate bombing of all mosques? NOBODY! That's who. But if Hamas decides to pop off rockets from the minaret of a mosque? Well then, target acquired. That's not being indiscriminate.

"INDISCRIMINATE"
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...BWxt/giphy.gif
10-23-2023, 11:31 AM
J. Barron DeJong

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBS

They seem to be walking this back
https://x.com/almonitor/status/17164...VcjE4XMSP00QCA

Well that sucks. Was hoping (but not banking on…) this would be the start of some dominoes falling.
10-23-2023, 11:36 AM
highangle

Hamas leaders got enough pocket money to buy a safe haven anywhere.
10-23-2023, 11:37 AM
MultiVerse

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong

Well that sucks. Was hoping (but not banking on…) this would be the start of some dominoes falling.

Think of it as diplomatic games. A story gets leaked and then retracted. Turkey recognized Israel in 1949. Then relations fell apart. This past August Turkey restored relations with Israel. Turkey’s regional posture is changing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

We're all entitled to our own opinions.

Setting aside the call to bomb the ever living shit out of Palestinians, my disagreement with MontuckyFried's line of reasoning which is not unique to him is that it disrupts Israel's normalization with Arab states. The fact that MontuckyFried spent time in the Middle East decades ago without understanding what has happened since is part of the problem.
10-23-2023, 11:38 AM
mcphee

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Umm, who said anything about "indiscriminate"? Using that word suggests that they're just carpet bombing the place for shits and giggles. They at least attempt to be pretty precise with their targets. Nothing indiscriminate about that.

And who here is suggesting the indiscriminate bombing of all mosques? NOBODY! That's who. But if Hamas decides to pop off rockets from the minaret of a mosque? Well then, target acquired. That's not being indiscriminate.

"INDISCRIMINATE"
https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...BWxt/giphy.gif

Israel has dropped 6000 bombs in 7 days on Gaza. All of Israel’s bombs this past week were precision guided to a verified enemy target? Even the refugee camp? GTFOH.
10-23-2023, 11:44 AM
highangle

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongShortLong

They are collectively helping the would be refugees. By refusing to accept refugees, they are refusing to support Israel's planned war crimes. Already seems to have slowed Israel's roll with the ground offensive. And Israel's politicians and leaders must surely note the character of their foreign support has changed based on their actions to date. Even the US sees protests now - depending on Israel's actions in the coming weeks, those will grow. I could see future Israel losing its reliable Security Council veto.

Why should anyone want Israel creating refugees? If they're creating refugees, condemn them until they stop.

Here's my hot take: Hamas needs to return the hostages they took.

I know it's a hot take because I'm not hearing it from you.
10-23-2023, 11:47 AM
dan_pdx

I haven't actually had any conversations with the "Israelis are colonizers" folks because doing pretty much anything else including watching shitty Netflix movies seems like a more fruitful use of time. How do they address the fact that Jews have been living in the area for millennia? I mean, they do know the First Temple was a synagogue, right?
10-23-2023, 11:56 AM
mcphee

Everyone over there fighting for that land has been there for millennia. Arabs kicked the Jews out. Jews kicked the Arabs out. Arabs kicked the Jews out. Wash, rinse, repeat. I don’t care which side anyone is on, it’s the dumbest territorial sandbox leadership bullshit with the highest stakes and it needs to stop.
10-23-2023, 12:08 PM
mcphee

Just keep advocating for more bombs as your defense stock portfolios rise. Jerking off to war videos. Entertaining someones lust for nuclear war because his life ended up so shitty he wants the whole world in with his own miserable existence. Others who are literally calling for an actual genocide. This place is populated with rich white trash. You’re all doing a great job!!
10-23-2023, 12:20 PM
MagnificentUnicorn

Quote:

Originally Posted by muted reborn

You may be talking about Montucky but just in case, I want to be clear Multiverse is not what I'd call shrill and I'm glad he's here posting on TGR about a buncha different topics.

Yes, Montuckey

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10-23-2023, 12:23 PM
Rasputin

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan_pdx

I haven't actually had any conversations with the "Israelis are colonizers" folks because doing pretty much anything else including watching shitty Netflix movies seems like a more fruitful use of time. How do they address the fact that Jews have been living in the area for millennia? I mean, they do know the First Temple was a synagogue, right?

Jerusalem was a city, and spiritual center, at the time of Abraham, hence before there was a Jewish people. Abraham was from Mesopotamia, not Palestine.
10-23-2023, 12:34 PM
MagnificentUnicorn

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried

Your logic here is wrong, Jimmy. TGR has an entire thread dedicated to ripping on the Christian faith. Many on TGR absolutely abhor the religion and the book on which it is based. Does that mean they hate the nearly 2.4 Billion people on the planet? I never took it that way, but perhaps I was wrong about that according to your logic.

The Christianity thread isn’t ripping on Christianity it’s ripping on the hypocrisy of people in the US claiming to be Christians but behaving in a way that has nothing to do with basic tenets of Christianity.

You’re saying you don’t mind Muslims but hate Islam. That’s entirely different. The basic tenets of Islam aren’t that much different Judaism or Christianity, they get twisted by fanatics and they’re clueless about their own faith. Is that an explanation that you can understand. I’ve known many peaceful, loving and generous Muslims that wish no one harm, it’s the basis of their religion. You might as well say you hate Christians and Jews too because they are all at the basest level Abrahamic religions and they worship the same god.

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10-23-2023, 12:35 PM
MagnificentUnicorn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cono Este

I love you guys have no respect for Montucky, the only guy with any real experience, in the middle East, outside of Wikipedia.

The only one of us who risked anything. You should all be college professors.

Ahem, Montuckey wasn’t in a combat role iirc. I was and I think there are a couple others. Kindly fuck off.

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10-23-2023, 12:42 PM
dan_pdx

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcphee

Everyone over there fighting for that land has been there for millennia. Arabs kicked the Jews out. Jews kicked the Arabs out. Arabs kicked the Jews out. Wash, rinse, repeat.

That's just what I'm saying though - the "Israelis are colonizers" narrative doesn't make any sense. How do those pushing that viewpoint square it with history?
10-23-2023, 12:48 PM
bennymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cono Este

I love you guys have no respect for Montucky, the only guy with any real experience, in the middle East, outside of Wikipedia.

The only one of us who risked anything. You should all be college professors.

With all respect to Montucky and his service this doesn’t mean he is then an authority.

Maybe he is - but serving over there doesn’t automatically make someone’s opinion on history and foreign affairs that of an expert.

Shit some guy (not Montucky) who spent a tour changing Humvee tires in Afghanistan now gets to opine on Israel and Gaza and we have to respect that “expert” opinion?

Jesus fuck give your head a shake. Explains why you think you having a distant uncle in every country in the world makes you a foreign affairs expert.
10-23-2023, 12:50 PM
mcphee

50 years to the day

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan_pdx

That's just what I'm saying though - the "Israelis are colonizers" narrative doesn't make any sense. How do those pushing that viewpoint square it with history?

I believe the present day “Israelis are colonizers” people mostly have issues with Israel’s allowance of their citizens to go into the West Bank and steal Palestinian homes.
10-23-2023, 12:57 PM
RoooR

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan_pdx

That's just what I'm saying though - the "Israelis are colonizers" narrative doesn't make any sense. How do those pushing that viewpoint square it with history?

On a long enough timeline aren't we all the decedents of people who have at various times been both colonizers and colonized?
10-23-2023, 01:03 PM
Rasputin

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan_pdx

That's just what I'm saying though - the "Israelis are colonizers" narrative doesn't make any sense. How do those pushing that viewpoint square it with history?

Likely the narrative is born because of the ongoing "settlement" of the West Bank, as well as the modern state of Israel's history, and policy, of annexing territory and pushing the people who were already there out (unless they're Jewish), looks a lot like colonial expansion to the folks getting pushed out.

Edit: I would add that recent history is more pertinent than land claims from antiquity, and Israel often errs on the side of violation.

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