50 years to the day

[LongShortLong]

They can't collectively help out some refugees?

They are collectively helping the would be refugees. By refusing to accept refugees, they are refusing to support Israel's planned war crimes. Already seems to have slowed Israel's roll with the ground offensive. And Israel's politicians and leaders must surely note the character of their foreign support has changed based on their actions to date. Even the US sees protests now - depending on Israel's actions in the coming weeks, those will grow. I could see future Israel losing its reliable Security Council veto.

Why should anyone want Israel creating refugees? If they're creating refugees, condemn them until they stop.

[MakersTeleMark]

If they're creating refugees, condemn them until they stop.

Yeah, that's the ticket. Go with that. You got the winning platform for sure. They'll be working in shifts.

[ex-powderbroker]

Something like 14 million pakistanis and indians switched sides of the border when pakistan got independence and none of those people are refugees.

none of the million middle eastern jews that were driven from their homes after the state of israel was created are refugees.

there is a lot that has gone awfully wrong with the fact that the palestinians are still carrying these victim cards with them so many decades later. honestly, it seems to have gotten worse.

summit posted a link of how their curriculum has changed over the years, it does seem like “two state”
has been replaced by “exterminate israel”.

this refugee issue is a problem created by their narrative which made their leadership rich, institutionalized racism in colonial trans-jordan and colonial-lebanon that have made them second class non citizens (mostly in camps, non-voting, restricted from professions), and Israel which has done them dirty.

there’s a lot of blame to go around but they seem to dodge all of it, including voting in a govt that murders all political challengers and their neighbors over the border.

[Rideski]

While universal condemnation of Hamas would be welcome, this map shows Syria, Iraq, Qatar & Iran are the main dead enders in the Middle East. Other countries may not support Israel, but it's less ideological and more out of self interest. Russia & China, for example, see this conflict as an opportunity to further their own interests (while cynically calling for peace) but they don't categorically deny Israel the right to exist.

Attachment 473793

Your chart shows Russia as condemning all violence ...

[LongShortLong]

there is a lot that has gone awfully wrong with the fact that the palestinians are still carrying these victim cards with them so many decades later. honestly, it seems to have gotten worse.

And thus they are driven from their own lands for having made the mistake of living there. Very similar to the American Indian problem. Americans kept taking more and more of their lands, complaining of the outrages committed against the settlers who "did nothing wrong," necessitating the army's response, and ever smaller reservations. Same for many colonial projects, not picking on the Americans exclusively.

[gravitylover]

So, in 2003 there were about 1 million people in the Gaza strip, now there's a bit over 2 million. In a place with little opportunity and limited resources why are people having so many children? These children are then taught to be angry and hate. Next thing you know they have an outsized military for a 140 sq mile piece of dirt that's being trained to eliminate their neighbor. Are we surprised this conflict is happening?

[subtle plague]

So, in 2003 there were about 1 million people in the Gaza strip, now there's a bit over 2 million. In a place with little opportunity and limited resources why are people having so many children? These children are then taught to be angry and hate. Next thing you know they have an outsized military for a 140 sq mile piece of dirt that's being trained to eliminate their neighbor. Are we surprised this conflict is happening?

Poor people in stage 2 or 3 multiply. Religion in the middle east plays a role too. Even the rich like Saudi Arabia try to solve the worlds problems by generating more faithful followers of the religion of peace.

no country is in 1 anymore because of International aid.

[Cono Este]

These pro Palestinians people in Gaza interviewed are just awful. Mostly foreigners themselves. I watch the bbc, and this is what I hear.

1. They get caught calling Israel “occupiers”, (no they left in 2005) then back down and say they are “duty” bound to provide supplies? Of course the interviewer never brings up the rocket attacks.

2. Then when asked “why hasn’t eygpt let the supplies in” they say, we’ll the Rafaa crossing was bombed, that’s why. They let ‘em getaway with that.

3. When asked what Hamas could do? No fucking answers, no release hostages, no direct questioning about the 20 yr rocket attacks.

A poll In 2013 said 38% supported rocket attacks so long as it didn’t effect trade, in 2014 a poll said 80% supported them

These people are helpless. They just go around, and around.

[Cono Este]

The truth, these people somehow justify the rocket attacks. Sure, the public figures will gently condemn it, pay it lip service, but off the cuff, no one ever calls for an end to it. It’s hard to even find a good write up on it. Tens of thousands rockets, into civilian areas.

[MultiVerse]

^ All of the above has been covered multiple times in this thread. Hamas runs Gaza like a dictatorship. The press is there, but there's no free press. Anyone openly condemning Hamas or calling for peace with Israel risks assassination if they are a Gazan or getting beaten and Kicked out if they are a foreigner. And Egypt does let supplies in. Egypt keeps opening and closing the border to supplies, but they do let in supplies. Hamas rocket attacks receive wide coverage in the media.

Cono is consistently one of the most unreliable sources of information on this forum.

Your chart shows Russia as condemning all violence ...

I wrote Russia and China are cynically calling for peace, too. Putin is aligned with a broader anti-American & anti-West kind of Axis of China, Russia and Iran. Think of it as a new Cold War with hot war raging in Ukraine and now in Israel. The Hamas onslaught on Israel started a new war in the Middle East providing a useful distraction for Russia even as storm clouds also continue to gather over Taiwan.

A high-level Hamas delegation traveled to Moscow twice last year to meet with Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Sergei Lavrov. Hamas promised Russia that they would "work to weaken the West." Hamas has the full backing of Iran, who are also Russian allies, and funding from Qatar. The reason Russia, Iran, Hamas, as well as North Korea support each other is for them, chaos is essential.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I wrote Russia and China are cynically calling for peace, too. Putin is aligned with a broader anti-American & anti-West kind of Axis of China, Russia and Iran. Think of it as a new Cold War with hot war raging in Ukraine and on Israel. The Hamas onslaught on Israel starts a new war in the Middle East providing a useful distraction for Russia even as storm clouds also continue to gather over Taiwan.

A high-level Hamas delegation traveled to Moscow twice last year to meet with Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Sergei Lavrov. Hamas promised Russia that they would "work to weaken the West." Hamas has the full backing of Iran, who are also Russian allies, and funding from Qatar. The reason Russia, Iran, Hamas, as well as North Korea support each other is for them, chaos is essential.

Striking similarities to the build up to WWII


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[highangle]

And thus they are driven from their own lands for having made the mistake of living there. Very similar to the American Indian problem. Americans kept taking more and more of their lands, complaining of the outrages committed against the settlers who "did nothing wrong," necessitating the army's response, and ever smaller reservations. Same for many colonial projects, not picking on the Americans exclusively.

Still trying to justify Hamas?

Eat shit.

[ex-powderbroker]

And thus they are driven from their own lands for having made the mistake of living there. Very similar to the American Indian problem. Americans kept taking more and more of their lands, complaining of the outrages committed against the settlers who "did nothing wrong," necessitating the army's response, and ever smaller reservations. Same for many colonial projects, not picking on the Americans exclusively.

it’s really not like America. Jews are indigenous to there. Unlike America there was no mother country trying to “colonize”. And, there was also a plan in place by the worlds governments to fix this by splitting resources in this particular colony with 70% going to Jordan.

They’re also not taking “more and more” land. Gaza has been 100% palestinian since 2005 and has a diplomatic issue, not a land one.

Lost in all of the nakba talk is also Israel being attacked by the combined might of all of its neighbors, including the colonial fake states that were created in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. They were supposed to address this problem and had a lot to do with making it worse instead. Somehow, every part of the history is ancient news except the Palestinian refugees.

The numbers of Palestinians are smaller than the number Jews forced to leave other brand new countries in the region. If the Palestinians are “indians” in your analogy, what are those guys?

WW2 was a long time ago and I won’t use it to justify any of Israel’s crimes in preventing the palestinians from living in dignity in the regions that are now occupied but why is it ancient history or irrelevant if you are talking to someone that supports Israel’s right to exist but as if it just happened if it’s the other side of the coin on the streets of NY or London or Sydney?

Why are we outraged when someone suggests any other country on the map “shouldn’t exist”? (ukraine, hong king, tibet, etc)

fkn weird, eh?

anyway, Israel isn’t going to accept a one state solution. not after these attacks, and not before, so it’s probably best to keep brainstorming.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

We should stop thinking about countries and think more about people. Pipe dream, that’ll never happen


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[muted reborn]

Everyone's favorite guy Jared talks about the Middle East for the first hour.



I feel I need a disclaimer for all the shrill people here who trigger easy: Yes, I know Lex doesn't ask any hard questions so it's Jared telling the story from one POV. Yes, Jared defends Trump in a way that is ridiculous. Still worth a listen if you can handle listening to someone you don't like.

[MultiVerse]

Still worth a listen if you can handle listening to someone you don't like.

I don't know if gets better. I listened to the first few minutes and the problems he claims to have solved never stopped and are still ongoing. For example, he says when Trump came into office Syria was in a civil war, Iran was funding Hamas and other terrorists groups, etc., all without mentioning those things kept happening as if to imply his administration solved the problems only to see them flare up again under the next.

They also withdrew from the arms control agreement with Iran. Folks can argue it was a bad deal to begin with. The most important thing however is all the Western concessions were front-loaded while Iran's concessions were back-loaded. Ending the agreement meant Iran got all the benefit without having to give anything up itself. As a result, many Western security analysts believe Iran was able to build and now has a nuclear bomb, although nobody knows for sure.

That's one of the problems the pending Saudi peace deal is meant to solve: stopping nuclear proliferation in the Middle East. The United States is providing security guarantees to Saudi Arabia in exchange for the Saudis not trying to acquire a bomb of their own.

[MontuckyFried]

Anyone openly condemning Hamas or calling for peace with Israel risks assassination if they are a Gazan or getting beaten and Kicked out if they are a foreigner.

That may be true IN Gaza, but there is NO excuse for all of the imbeciles at the Pro-Palestine rallies all around the (much safer, free speech allowing) Western world who refuse to call out Hamas for their BS. Is Rashida Tlaib at risk for assassination? Because if so, she's clearly been compromised by the enemy and needs to GTFO of American leadership. Unreal how she (and literally EVERY interviewee at the rallies) outright refuse to condemn the Gazan leadership.

I'm noticing a distinct lack of calling out the evil-doers at these rallies. I HAVE seen chants calling to "gas the Jews" tho, so there's that.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

^^^One of the shrill posters?


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[Cono Este]

^ All of the above has been covered multiple times in this thread. Hamas runs Gaza like a dictatorship. The press is there, but there's no free press. Anyone openly condemning Hamas or calling for peace with Israel risks assassination if they are a Gazan or getting beaten and Kicked out if they are a foreigner. And Egypt does let supplies in. Egypt keeps opening and closing the border to supplies, but they do let in supplies. Hamas rocket attacks receive wide coverage in the media.

Cono is consistently one of the most unreliable sources of information on this forum.



I wrote Russia and China are cynically calling for peace, too. Putin is aligned with a broader anti-American & anti-West kind of Axis of China, Russia and Iran. Think of it as a new Cold War with hot war raging in Ukraine and now in Israel. The Hamas onslaught on Israel started a new war in the Middle East providing a useful distraction for Russia even as storm clouds also continue to gather over Taiwan.

A high-level Hamas delegation traveled to Moscow twice last year to meet with Russian Foreign Affairs Minister Sergei Lavrov. Hamas promised Russia that they would "work to weaken the West." Hamas has the full backing of Iran, who are also Russian allies, and funding from Qatar. The reason Russia, Iran, Hamas, as well as North Korea support each other is for them, chaos is essential.

Fuck you dude. We’re talking about Ww3 here, and there are still people in this thread not asking those questions. you obviously have no skin in the game, you’ve not met a war you didn’t like, I
I could be pointing all kinds hypocrisy in this admin in polynass, dunking on your ass for hamstringing Israel by shipping off their ordinance to Ukraine, but it’s no longer a game. I’m fair, unlike you.

Who is this Rumsfeld wanna be?

[MultiVerse]

All of cono's questions have been covered multiple times in this thread. If he were fair he'd also discuss how settlers in the West Bank are accelerating their ethnic cleansing operation and how the current Israeli government is openly calling for annexing Gaza.

[MontuckyFried]

And thus they are driven from their own lands for having made the mistake of living there. Very similar to the American Indian problem. Americans kept taking more and more of their lands, complaining of the outrages committed against the settlers who "did nothing wrong," necessitating the army's response, and ever smaller reservations. Same for many colonial projects, not picking on the Americans exclusively.

So what should the North American tribes do about that in the year 2023? Get back to the good ol days of Comanche style raiding parties like it's 1840? Go on murderous rapey killing sprees like Hamas just did?

If Gaza wants peace, it's real easy. Knock it off with the constant barrage of rockets, return the hostages, engage in peace talks. But that's a complete non-starter for their entirely evil leadership who is willing to sacrifice all their own people if that's what it takes, who hates the Jews and will never be satisfied until they conquer ALL of Israel, and then hunt down and kill every last Jew on the planet. And don't kid yourself that you're not next on their hit list either. First the Jews and the reclaiming of the Holy Land, then the Christians, then ALL non-believers. And then when they convert the whole planet to Islam, that still ain't good enough cuz we all know about the Sunni vs Shia beef. They've been duking it out amongst themselves all the same. And then when one of THEM prevails, there are further fractions and they'll divide and start killing each other too.

From the Hamas Covenant:

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. The Islamic Resistance Movement is but one squadron that should be supported...until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realized. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine...It is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders...

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"....There is no solution for the Palestine question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. Palestine is an Islamic land.

Here's an ISIS map showing their plans for just getting the ball rolling:

Get the picture yet?

[muted reborn]

I don't know if gets better. I listened to the first few minutes....

I read the first sentence of your post and disagreed with it, does the rest of the post get better? I don't like spending time reading or hearing anything I disagree with.

Kidding....

[MultiVerse]

Heh, i's not that I disagree as a matter of opinion, it's the factually wrong aspect. FWIW, I've praised the Trump admins Abraham Accords several times in this thread as a starting point for wider Arab recognition of Israel.

[muted reborn]

^^^One of the shrill posters?


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You may be talking about Montucky but just in case, I want to be clear Multiverse is not what I'd call shrill and I'm glad he's here posting on TGR about a buncha different topics.

[Cono Este]

Next, china invades Taiwan, we’re all drafted, or our kids are, and multiverse explains how a three front war makes sense geo politically,, then North Korea. And he quadruples down, on policy and principle, but fails logistically and we all die.