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Year 1 is when a product is tested if sell through is good then of course they will buy more of what is working the second year. If a product does not sell then a retailer reacts and changes course but we are not seeing that happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
^^ Goldens point is still valid here.
Year [emoji637] sell through doesn’t not indicate what is BEST for people. It’s showing marketing hype, people’s trust in their boot fitter based on what they were told from the rep, early adopters, and likely a bit of hope for a better mousetrap.
As people ski these boots over the first year I’d look at year [emoji638]-[emoji639] sales volumes to truly infer what’s “working” vs what’s hype.
Most of the people I’ve talked to with BOA seem to like them but are in a “comfort fit” and when I asked about buckling/unbuckling etc they looked at me strangely. I suspect that it is a much much better for option if someone is running a larger fit. I’m not 100% convinced on it for a race fit. But I’m pretty open minded to trying it. I want to believe.
You must be ^^ a republican ?
^^ When Lange puts them out there in a top boot, I'll probably try them but until then, there's no point. I'm really happy with the RX130 and have a pair of Shadows on the way.
Exactly we are into year three buy now and we are seeing no slow down in the slightest. Maybe it will come in a few more years but honestly I just don’t see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiLyft
Year 2 and 3 sales are irrelevant. Take Hawx Ultra xtd for example. We didn't have the option for no boa. The stats are always skewed. Also, when it comes down to it, bootfitters are going to sell what they have. As in, If that's the only boot on the shelf, its probably going on to the persons foot. I'd be curious to see sales numbers through out the year to see which go first if there was actually a choice (which there wasn't) and you'd have to control for different demographics coming through different times of the year.
The notable thing is the impetus for boa. It wasn't a natural evolution. It wasn't people looking to solve a problem. It was a large, well funded company looking to push into the industry. I'd love to hear about incentives to manufacturers and pricing vs buckles or other financial influences. It was a manipulated market for sure.
Personally, I feel like boa is more effective for super precise fits where you basically don't need to do anything up or god awful loose fits where they don't look for any retention. It does not allow for a controlled change of the shape of the boot.
As you know I’m in the Fischer RCfour pro one forty pro BOA. My fit is very snug and not what some would call comfort. They are nice comfort wise for a ski boot as I am more performance minded, hence why I wanted a one forty flex and like to drive big stiff skis so powerful precision is a must for me. I represent nothing of your above demographic, though hilarious!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
I was very skeptical of lower BOA but after having 30ish days in them I am very pleased with their fit, duty and performance.
I am very open to new tech until it shows me otherwise. Threads like these remind me of the shape ski and fat ski introduction.
Not sure about upper cuff boa but I doubt I’ll get to try it as that’s a tough thing to do for boots, at least on hill. I was willing to take a chance on lower boa as that area is less impacted by boa.
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It’s funny how some seem to think this is a new this year tech and hasn’t established a track record.Quote:
Originally Posted by tompietrowski;[emoji[emoji6[emoji640
Sent from my iPhone using [emoji638]][emoji640][emoji640]][emoji640][emoji638][emoji638][emoji638]]TGR Forums
Everyone always says boa wasn’t wanted but ski boots have never been comfortable. Businesses exist with the sole purpose of trying to fit them better for people. People have always wanted more comfortable boots. Boa offers this improvement in comfort for a lot of people. This is why it has taken off so quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
But as for sales if you look at the walls of most shops buckle boots still dominate the wall and boa boots are the minority. So there are many more buckle than boa options for customers to buy but sell through data is consistently showing boa out performing buckle. Now it may be down to hype but honestly 90% of skiers don’t know anything about products. They simple buy what feels best.
Would you not think the amount of people that WANT to have to buckle and unbuckle their boots all day is a pitifully small number?Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKALVS
If a customer wants comfort he will get comfort. If a customer wants performance he will get performance. If he wants to rub his boa lacing in his rich friends faces because it is the coolest thing to have! He wants it he will get it. Of corse the sales person will sell what is in stock and the most expensive product. If the sales person is not convinced about boa he will tend to sell Buckles!
But if I see boa I will smile!
Hold on, I seem to be missing something here. How many pairs if boots do you guys get through??! I've been in the same boot the last 10 years. If I buy a double BOA boot now, I'm more or less stuck with it for the next 5-10 years before I can make my ire fellt and buy a buckle boot again. That's not going to show up in any year 2-3 sales numbers.
N+1Quote:
Originally Posted by McDee
new boot every year cuz the boots bought on-line didnt fit
repeat ^^ every year
Walked right into that oneQuote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember
How are BOA boots more comfortable? I can see easier to "buckle", more convenient, maybe easier, but how are they more comfortable than a 4 buckle option?
With every manufacturer jumping on the BOA bandwagon quicker than any other technology launch in history, it's not love vs hate, it's the only thing you be able to buy if you a recreational skier. I hope there isn't a BOA lawsuit that will send the industry in a death spiral.
I think the most salient comment so far has been the comparison to laces. I have a quiver of mtb shoes, quite a few of them with boa & overall all of those have been fantastic (much more durable than Velcro obviously, which always wears out) and especially on a stiff XC shoe they let me dial in a snug yet comfortable fit. But a shoe upper is inherently flexible, and benefits naturally from multi attachment points (laces or boa) as a result. And on a beefier / taller shoe they still tend to have an ankle strap/buckle that really locks in heel hold.
The lightweight Boa common in AT boots (in my case F1s and Skorpius IIs currently) has worked well for me mostly because the rearward attachment points have been far enough back that I can easily get it dialed in (heh) for zero heel lift on the uphill. Meanwhile, I have several pairs of buckled AT boots that don’t quite accomplish this basic feat because they’ve tried to get away with one buckle (Z or otherwise) on the clog. My 2025 ZGPTs have been fine in this regard mostly due to the correctly narrow heel pocket. Anyway, an AT boot with relatively pliable clog shell (eg Skorps) is a good fit (heh) for a Boa application. The shell stiffness doesn’t really fight the Boa, so it’s almost like lacing up a hiking boot just faster and more secure. And notice that the AT boot industry has had it for years but never fucked around with Boa on the cuff.
For any of my stiffer clog boots I’m not sure Boa is necessary or advantageous from that ^ engineering perspective. From what I’ve seen the Alpine Boa wheel had to be made much larger than that on an mtb shoe or soft AT boot, in order to give the hand enough leverage. That has made the dial placement more challenging & much less low profile as a result. I’m sure I could replace it in the field but honestly I’d just throw on two Voile straps and finish the day. Btw this is yet another argument against upper cuff boa.
A cautionary tale—the auto industry makes hudge R&D investments and so the marketing research can be crucial to getting that right. Yet somehow the industry fucked up mightily and convinced themselves full flatscreen controls were the future. Backlash was consistent in the field, and in the last 2 yrs many companies have introduced knobs for key controls. Yet throughout those years there were highly paid marketing execs waving around data ‘proving’ 100% touchscreen was what the market wanted.
I’m not a Boa or flatscreen controls hater—at least in the right applications—but I chuckle a bit when I see a marketing narrative that is self reinforcing to the point that market choice goes away.
This is my question as well. If we could have had not one but two product managers explain it to us in multiple threads over the past year it could have been real helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by mff353
It's the wrap (BOA) vs crush(buckles) theory. BOA allegedly provides comfort on the lower clog and performance on the upper shell. How convenient.
I tried on the hawx ultra xtd in buckles and boa. The buckles version put pressure on my instep while flexing, the boa one did not. The boa version also felt more solid like a proper boot instead of a touring boot you could flex through.
I also tried on the alpha buckle boot and the shift alpha boa boot. With buckles version I had to crank the buckles to keep my foot from sliding front and back, with the boa one I lightly tightened the boa and foot is held firmly. Both salomon boots tried with my zipfit liner.
So the two boa boots I have tested both fit better than their buckle version. I don't know if it's the boa system or the shell design (or the combination). Not sure why you guys are so afraid of the possibility of getting a better fitting boot?
I bought the shift alpha boa and have two days in it so far. Great complement to the my raptors. No problems with the boa so far, but I don't see why there should be, it's just a cable and a knob.
Awesome they’re working for you. People are not mad that boa is an option. They’re concerned that buckles seem to be disappearing. This combined with the ski industry’s history of buzzword bs marketing to the lowest common denominator (gripwalk, rear entry, lights on skis, “vibration absorbing whateverthefuck”) is what has people concerned that maybe we should preserve some choice here..Quote:
Originally Posted by herrgard
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Exactly this.^
Ultimately if there is a demand for buckle boots buckle boots will be produced. Brands are in business ultimately to make money which we do from selling products. So if there is demand for a product it will be produced. Currently we are not seeing that demand but who knows what will happen in the future.
How is boa more comfortable? Since we seem to be talking big box stores where bootfitters have no influence on the fitting and sale, it’s safe to assume the boots are all too big. Customers aren’t cranking down the buckle, nor the boa. They don’t look for retention. Like you said, they are looking for comfort. So, the customer puts on a boot that is too big and the shell shape and liner determines the comfort. Not the boa.Quote:
Originally Posted by tompietrowski
The big box stores are not really into boa yet as the price points are still a bit above their range for the most part. Boa can help with the comfort of the lower shell for many people by reducing the peak pressure under the buckles. When you look at a pressure map of the foot in the same boot with buckles and boa the peak pressures are reduced by close to 15% and the pressure distribution is much more even. Many people will know that feeling of the instep buckle pushing into the top of the foot when tightened down hard. This is what boa can help with for many people. The more even pressure distribution will also help with power transfer from foot to shell. If more of the foot is in contact with shell then more force can be applied though the lower shell.
are they paying you on Saturday Tom?
Education is not a Monday to Friday only thing :)
Why do we want even pressure over the entire foot?
For boa to tighten and give even pressure on the foot, doesn’t that mean the shell has to be the same distance from the foot in all places? Well actually, since boa doesn’t tighten evenly, it would have to be that the shell is the right distance from the foot compared to how much boa closes it in that one specific area.
It’s more to do with how badly buckles tighten. Buckles really only apply pressure directly under where they close and as I’m sure you know this can be a real issue for many people especially those with a higher instep. Boa can help reduce this pressure without loosing any closing force.
I ski in a narrow boot and can't lock my 2nd buckle without cutting circulation. I just hook it and hope it doest lock from impact or ski without it. Would like to try boa for that reason alone
Here’s some actual data charts showing how the even pressure distribution of boa is better across the front of foot and leg as well as better pressure distribution across the bottom of the foot. More even pressure means less hot spots
are pics not working? or is it just meQuote:
Originally Posted by FloridaSnow
the forum is broke
If you can’t close the boot without cutting off your instep, Boa isn’t going to help you because your shell is too tight on your instep. Boa definitely tightens downwards, even if it also tightens inwards. I often have people comment on feeling pressure below the dial and below the 1st pulley. Try lengthening your buckle or ladder or grind your boot board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qilimanjaro
You are completely right that those are some methods to help relive the issue but this person is also a prime candidate for having a boa boot solve many of their issues. When buying a new boot they should certainly try a boa boot if there is a boot with an appropriate fit, which by next season there is a good chance there will be. It may not solve their problems and if that’s the case what you suggest will certainly help but bootfitters often forget to keep it simple and from everything we have seen this is a perfect example of where boa may resolve the issues without any additional work needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBC
No BOA love here. Too bad for those Fischer RC4 Pro MV Dyn, they'd have been a blast without BOA.
As a life long Raichle Flexon Comp /Full Tilt Classic (and presumably next to K2 is calling them now) troglodyte, I don’t need any convincing that cables are an effective way to distribute pressure around my anatomy as a boot flexes, I’m just not understanding how a bulky, vulnerable, awkward and slow to adjust dial provides anything that a simple low-profile micro adjustable buckle attached to a cable can’t do better, other than novelty that feeds hype that (for now) translates into sales. What am I missing?
That the boa hard points are pulleys…
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