P18 Pivot FKS forward pressure - ignore the indicator?

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Originally Posted by J_Berg

...I think they mounted the heels too close to the toes.

Is there a limit to how far I could back off those heel posts before I risk ripping the dildo off?

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In this situation where you don't have a trustworthy shop to help you, and it's difficult for us to tell you foolproof instructions (because FKS are set "by feel'), videos might work best for communication. But instead, maybe start over by at least making sure it's possible to set the FW pressure too low. To achieve that, adjust the arms to become very long, click the boot in, confirm that the dildo pops ALL THE WAY UP 100%, and then confirm that your hand can pivot the dildo easily enough so you'll think "Whoa, that's gotta be too much easy pivoting movement, so my boot will just be swimming loosely while skiing." If you can achieve that, then that's a good sign. That means it's possible to shorten the arm length from there, until it results in correct FW pressure. Then, at that correct FW pressure, there are some final checks to decide whether or not it's an acceptable mount (ask us, if you reach this point). On the other hand, if you can't even find any long arm length that confirms a low FW pressure position is possible, then you probably need to give up on the current mount and then remount for the correct boot sole length.

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Originally Posted by J_Berg

Also, I assume the toe wings should show no gap?

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I say don't even work on that until after you get the FW pressure correct. But before you set FW pressure, make sure you first set DIN on heel AND toe to final value (or even higher...but NOT lower). Anyway, I think you have a DIN=12 toe, right? Those toes have a left wing part, and a right wing part, which are able to move away from each other by design, which can open a gap between them. With bindings all set to proper FW pressure and DIN, if both toes have the exact same gap there with boot in, then it's probably by design for the toe wings to spread in order to conform to the shape of your specific boot model. On the other hand, if the 2 toes have very different gap widths, then that would be very suspicious.

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Paging reckless_toboggan


I've always set my pivots up so that the heel of my boot has a sliver of sunlight between the heel cup when stepping into the binding. This has worked well. I tend to ignore the indicator but on most setups, this puts the forward pressure tab "in the neighborhood."

If we use this "gap" as our forward pressure proxy, how much of a gap is there on yours?

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Awesome. Thanks for the picks.

So I think most people set up so that the heel of the boot is just brushing the cup of the binding heel piece. That'll work, but I usually back the heel piece off about a quarter to half turn (one or two clicks on each arm) to get to pretty much what you have there.

I've also ridden them with more of a gap than that and they still worked. They felt lose and I could feel my heel coming off the ski and floating during certain circumstances, but no unwanted releases. Looked down and the dildo was off kilter about 20 or 30 degrees to the side of where it should have been. No biggie. This happened a few times riding them for 10 days or so at the Horse.

Decided to tighten them up to where they are now, similar to yours, and I noticed the stiffer connection to the ski, and experienced way less suppleness of the ski flexing under foot. These were on 193 EHPs and 186 EHPs.

I've since tightened all mine up to about where yours are, maybe one click out. Hard to really tell unless you feel them. With a boot in the binding, my dildos will still rotate on the boot, but not easily. Gotta pull kinda hard. There is a bit of brake movement when I reef on the boot.

When I've tightened pivots to where the boot heel is actually brushing the heel cup, and there is no brake movement when I reef on the boot, I feel like they really block out any feel under the boot, are very on-off in release, in a bad way, in a marker kind of way where it's unpredictable, but with some weird grindy type tension before it happens. There's no grinding per se, but like forcing plastic to dent or deform before release, instead of just a clean quick release. It makes the pivots feel like salomons to me.

To explain, per the other thread, I run salomons about 2 or 3 din higher than pivots, and I run about a half or quarter turn more ffwd pressure than what sally says. When I run with recommended forward pressure, especially on a well used set of sally favs, I get the no-release release from when the forward pressure spring can't keep up with the rebound of the ski and it just falls off your boot (granted, that only really happens much on hardpack, not as much in softer stuff, I haven't had it happen in truely bottomless stuff). So when I run the sallys with a quarter to half turn more ffwd pressure to reduce the instances of no-release releases, they have a firm snap, on off, clean release, that is predictable, but right before it happens, I get that same grindy tension plastic deformation feeling. Like there's too much friction. Because there is. I have to run more forward pressure to mitigate the binding giving me a random no-release release. When I run the sallys at normal ffwd pressure, they feel better, smoother, more supple, etc. but I've had the no-release release happen too many times.

Anyway, when I run pivots with the heel brushing the dildo and no brake movement when reefing, it just feels like there's too much friction in the system for me, at that point, and makes them feel like sallys to me.

tl;dr: [emoji106] looks good!

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Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

Awesome. Thanks for the picks.

So I think most people set up so that the heel of the boot is just brushing the cup of the binding heel piece. That'll work, but I usually back the heel piece off about a quarter to half turn (one or two clicks on each arm) to get to pretty much what you have there.

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Your method is essentially how I had mine, ie close to touching but sliver of light, but I got there lining up the white tab with the lines. I kept popping out in rough terrain or while landing, so had to tighten fwd pressure. Now when I step in the binding has to use a small amount of it's elasticity, ie heel touching and pushes heel back ~ 1mm or the bindings do not keep me in in either set of boots I use - FWIW the white tab pushes out a mm plus from indicator lines.

RT has this "forward pressure spring can't keep up with the rebound of the ski and it just falls off your boot" really happened to you multiple times on different sally bindings. I've never experienced that and I ski plenty of crust/ice/hardpack

So just to catch everyone up...

This all stems from the Salomon shift thread, where I made this post.

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Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

I was a certified tech working in shops for a decade.

I worked in shops to help pay for my skiing since I was 15. I also coached for 4 years.

Coach also worked at the shop (he got me the job), he was meticulous about our gear. We tuned and checked binders before every race.

They were set correctly.


Also, I agree, setting look turntables forward pressure tighter than spec (I'm not talking about the tab here) does make them ski like salomons...which is a hudge detriment.

There are several look setup threads here on TGR which explain how to set them up to spec. Use them, then back off 1 click on each arm. You won't pre-release, no-release release, or release in an unwanted fashion. You'll actually be able to feel the ski flexing more freely underfoot. That's the beauty of the pivots. Don't make them ski like sallys.

More forward pressure means your heel piece is pushing your toe piece through release MORE often, with LESS elasticity (not to mention creating a hudge dead spot in the flex of the ski under your boot). So if your forward pressure is really cranked up like you say, then you're the one who's not set up correctly. With look, because of the arc the heel goes through to get out of the way when the ski is flexing (kind of like a mini-telemark binding in this regard), they are actually less sensitive to lower forward pressure setting than salomon are. ie. Low ffwd pressure looks will ski, low ffwd pressure sally will fall off as they rely solely on the ffwd pressure spring.


With sallys, aggressive skiers who know how to work a ski would benefit from a stiffer (or at least a faster rebound) forward pressure spring.

With sallys, if the ski flexes at all, the heel piece has to back up into the ffwd pressure spring to accommodate the boot sole length which stays the same, while the space between the bindings is trying to get shorter. With every flex and rebound of the ski, the ffwd pressure spring has an opportunity to leave a small gap between the boot and binding upon returning to home position. A faster rebound spring would help this, but not eliminate it.

With look, the binding heel arcs upwards, keeping the space the same to accommodate the boot, allowing the ski to flex freely without relying on a spring. Because it relies on the arc of the binding, and not on a spring, you don't have the threat of too slow a rebound in the spring. The binding always moves where the boot moves. When you run out of this arc path, then you back up into the smaller amount of fore/aft float in the base of the heel piece. After you go through that, then you release. Again, this is following an actual turntable setup (not the tab), then backing off one click.

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D: I'm not even supposed to be here today.

R: You sound like an asshole!

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Originally Posted by klauss

Your method is essentially how I had mine, ie close to touching but sliver of light, but I got there lining up the white tab with the lines. I kept popping out in rough terrain or while landing, so had to tighten fwd pressure. Now when I step in the binding has to use a small amount of it's elasticity, ie heel touching and pushes heel back ~ 1mm or the bindings do not keep me in in either set of boots I use

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This has been my experience as well. Though it's also hard because I turned the DIN up substantially at some point, too, so I'm not sure exactly what caused what. I currently run with the DIN set to 13 (chart at 9) and the fwd pressure set to heel brushing the heel cup. I kinda want to back off the forward pressure via RT's method ... but not enough to risk pre-releasing at high speed.

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Originally Posted by klauss

Your method is essentially how I had mine, ie close to touching but sliver of light, but I got there lining up the white tab with the lines. I kept popping out in rough terrain or while landing, so had to tighten fwd pressure. Now when I step in the binding has to use a small amount of it's elasticity, ie heel touching and pushes heel back ~ 1mm or the bindings do not keep me in in either set of boots I use - FWIW the white tab pushes out a mm plus from indicator lines.

RT has this "forward pressure spring can't keep up with the rebound of the ski and it just falls off your boot" really happened to you multiple times on different sally bindings. I've never experienced that and I ski plenty of crust/ice/hardpack

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Yes. Skiing over 50 or 60 and pop a roller, prejumping a roller, etc., shifties, or really popped jumps with tricks, etc., dig a trench of a turn before a roller and get weightless and just have your unreleased ski drift off aimlessly while you try to collect your feces before impact...etc.

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Originally Posted by auvgeek

This has been my experience as well. I want to try RT's method, but not enough to risk pre-releasing at high speed.

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FWIW. I've never pre-released with my method. I ski high speed pretty regularly during the day, over 60 easy, get to 70 regularly, a few spots with pitches that'll get you faster, but I don't recommend that anymore [emoji6] (these speeds allow for a GPS error of about 15% as the GPS Garmin 60CSx shows speeds that are faster).


In fact, while my boots sometimes felt like they float off the ski, they actually feel more dampened in the bindings because of more elasticity, and therefore MORE connected to the bindings themselves.


So I settled for somewhere in between, which looks to be right around where margo is set.

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Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

FWIW. I've never pre-released with my method. In fact, while my boots sometimes feel like they float off the ski, they actually feel more dampened in the bindings because of more elasticity, and therefore MORE connected to the bindings.

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I believe you. But I also believe my experience, which is:

Chart to 9-9.5. Set DIN at 10 to be safe. Pre-released.
Turned up the DIN from 10 to 11. Pre-released.
Turned up the DIN from 11 to 12. Prereleased and torn a ligament in my wrist.
Turned up the DIN from 12 to 13 and increased forward pressure. Haven't pre-released since. Several reliable releases in that time, several "maybe my ski should have come off while I was tomahawking there, but I guess I was able to ski out of it so maybe that's fine?" moments, too.

I'm 165#, not a massive guy. Ski harder than some, not as hard as others. So while I want to try your method, I'm pretty wary of getting hurt because, as is typical of pre-release, I'm sure it would manifest itself at the worst possible time.

Just my story.

Do you guys ski shins hard in the front of the boot?

Or more centered like Hoji?

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Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

Do you guys ski shins hard in the front of the boot?

Or more centered like Hoji?

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More centered, prefer a progressive mount. And usually on pretty stiff skis. All the pre-releases happened on OG Renegades.

FWIW, I’ve also skied P18s with the DIN set to 0 (turned down for summer — stupid, never again!) for two full days skiing pretty hard. But I had lateral releases trying to spin and then while side stepping and eventually figured out the issue. I felt SO stupid, but it was hard to tell because had been turned down so far and the plastic was really scratched and it actually looked like they were set to 11. Anyway, I also don’t break skis. So I don’t think I'm *that* hard on my bindings. Unlike a guy I know who walks out of his P18s set to 16 and snaps skis in the forebody pretty regularly. Obviously the dude rips super hard, but it's also his style of bashing moguls rather than popping of them that's so hard on gear.

Interesting.


I prefer a progressive mount and ski from the center with pivots on EHPs, Renegades, etc.

I can ski shins hard in the boot too, which is how I learned and coached when I was coming up on 197 straight skinny skis.

The sally no-release releases I had were when racing etc on long stiff straight skinny skis, or when ripping groomers on softer skis with short sidecut radii (20 to 22 m) using a traditional shins in tongues technique or a tip and turn technique.

The pivots worked for me both on those, and on the big radius, long, stiff skis that I prefer to ski from the centre now.

The only pair of salomons I have left are 916s on 191 Movement Goliaths and the new shifts on 186 Renegades. I haven't no-released on them. But I have very much reduced my exposure too Salomon over the last decade or so because of it.

It's funny because when I was racing and coaching, we'd specifically look for compressions right before rollers and plan lines to pre-jump the compression or pick an angle through it instead of straight on, because those were pretty much made to take salomons off your feet with a no-release. Compression flexes the ski, rebound of the roller...bye, bye ski. You could sit there and watch it happen all race long.

http://galibierdesign.com/images/other_forums/Pivot-Heel_Adj_FP-01.jpg[/IMG]


Heel gap spacing - side view:

https://tgr.scdn2.secure.raxcdn.com/..._Adj_FP-02.jpg


Boot engaged:

https://tgr.scdn2.secure.raxcdn.com/..._Adj_FP-03.jpg

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Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un

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I have problems engaging the heel frequently (need to manually assist), but prioritized the above (how it looks when engaged). I assumed the difficulty in clicking in was the nature of the WTR heel profile (even with very little wear on my Lange XT 130s). Take note of the bottom corner of the heel in the side view. It's making contact with the "corner" of the dildo.

I'm a weenie compared to y'all and ski at 8 heel / 7 toe and never come out when I don't want to.

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I'm not sure I've got your meaning, but I've run mine with few more mm between the closest part of the boot heel and the dildo hump, while the boot is resting on the open binding (ie. I had more space between the boot heel and the dildo hump than you appear to have in pic #2). I had to do the manual assist to get in sometimes, as the binding would occasionally snap closed without capturing the boot heel ledge. That was about where I ran mine in its loosest setting, and when the ski felt most free underfoot. I had no I'll effects, other than the dildo rotating out of alignment a few times, which I'd notice once I got back to the lift line. I felt it was a bit too sloppy for my tastes and settled on a middle ground...although I wish I get the ski to feel as good underfoot as it did when it was set up the sloppy way.

In picture #2 it does look like your boot heel is grazing the middle hump of the dildo, maybe it's just the angle of the pic. So it looks to me that it's about the same, or even tighter than margotron's setup with the sliver of light. I run mine with a sliver of light. I make it so the boot heel brushes the dildo cup, and then back it of a click or two on each arm.

This is really helpful. Thanks!

It seems as if we arrived at very similar solutions, but taking different approaches to get there. I initially thought that you guys were referring to the 5mm space I showed in photo #1.

I just saw @margotron's post (#83) and feel better now ;-) I couldn't believe that I was off by 4-5mm.

In looking at this, I adopted a working assumption of looking at it from the binding's perspective. What would result in the most positive contact with the boot?

My photo #2 - I tried to get as perpendicular as possible to view the space, but it looks as if I was off by a couple of degrees because the space (about 1mm) doesn't show. This is the space between the bottom corner of the boot sole and the cup of the dildo. I think this cup is what you mean by hump.

[edit] Reading through this thread, I see that Vitamin I, also endorses the horizontal/parallel relationship between the contact point of the dildo and the boot sole ledge (post #27).

So, boot sole brushing the cup gets you the same dildo orientation, but boot sole wear can skew your results, so cross validating is a good idea.[/edit]

... Thom

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

Thanks for this helpful info.

Good read.
Adjusting Pivots now, FP looks solid.

However the friction between the toe and AFD is too high.
I've seen comments regarding toe height adjustability, is that controlled by the ring around the toe DIN screw?
With the three little indents that look like it requires a specialized tool to rotate?

Collective?

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Originally Posted by pfluffenmeister

Good read.
Adjusting Pivots now, FP looks solid.

However the friction between the toe and AFD is too high.
I've seen comments regarding toe height adjustability, is that controlled by the ring around the toe DIN screw?
With the three little indents that look like it requires a specialized tool to rotate?

Collective?

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what boot? which pivot toe? the ring does nothing

Krypton Pro, but it does have a Vibram toe block (with a AFD) added.
P14 and FKS140 (I'm setting up two pairs of skis).

I can pull out the card I use to test toe friction in between the boot and binder, but it takes more effort than usual.
(Usually run STHs).

grip walk AFD or the dual height one? the 14 DIN toes are self adjusting for height, the added vibram is probably screwing it up, does it still fall into ISO 5355 dimensional standards?

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Originally Posted by waxman

grip walk AFD or the dual height one? the 14 DIN toes are self adjusting for height, the added vibram is probably screwing it up, does it still fall into ISO 5355 dimensional standards?

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Hmm, height of toe lugs is 20mm.
AFD is the old, no-side to side slide or height adjustment AFD.

edit: I can't find 5355/2019 w/o buying it. but this page from ISO 5355/2005: https://www.sis.se/api/document/preview/906255/ seems to indicate that the toe lug height is 19mm +/- 1mm?

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Originally Posted by pfluffenmeister

Hmm, height of toe lugs is 20mm.
AFD is the old, no-side to side slide or height adjustment AFD.

edit: I can't find 5355/2019 w/o buying it. but this page from ISO 5355/2005: https://www.sis.se/api/document/preview/906255/ seems to indicate that the toe lug height is 19mm +/- 1mm?

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without seeing the boot i'm guessing the vibram mod is interfering with the slidyness (that's a technical term) of the system
as mentioned the toe height is self adjusting, you decide

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Originally Posted by pfluffenmeister

Krypton Pro, but it does have a Vibram toe block (with a AFD) added.
P14 and FKS140 (I'm setting up two pairs of skis).

I can pull out the card I use to test toe friction in between the boot and binder, but it takes more effort than usual.
(Usually run STHs).

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The card test is for STHs only, it's more of a gap test than a friction test and STHs have toe height adjustment to dial in the gap. For pivots just do a bench return to center test, if you can get the boot toe to travel 3-5mm left and right and it snaps back to center nicely then you're good to go.

If the toe height is way off due to custom boot mods or trying to get non-compliant boots to work, you could in theory un-mount the toe from the ski and install plastic shims between the toe piece mounting plate and the AFD mounting plate to increase the toe height. Decreasing the toe height would be harder since you would need to remove material between the toe piece mounting plate and the AFD mounting plate.

All this to say, if it passes the return to center test and there isn't any up and down play in your toe piece to boot interface you're probably as good as you're going to get with P18s and rubber soled boots, they were originally designed for solid plastic race boot soles after all...

I am mounting Pivot 14s to accommodate 2 boot sizes: 285mm (Salomon X-Max) and 295mm (Tecnica Mach 1). I did a practice mount on a 2x4 at 290mm. Reading the thread, it seems that the appropriate forward pressure is a small gap between the boot and the heel cup. At 285mm, there is only a small fraction of the first notch shown. At 295mm, there is over 3/4 of the 3rd notch visible. Is that fine? Any concerns with being at the upper and lower limits of the bands? I know I'm being overly cautious...
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What’s it look like/feel like stepped in/dildo up?

Snaps in nicely, angled around 80 degrees or so. Seems to rest nicely on the boot heel lugs. No movement in the heel. However, I'm a Pivot newbie and even when I adjusted the heel piece to create more space between the boot and the heel cup, I couldn't really feel a difference.
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Twist the heel back and forth with your hand. Shouldn’t move with a reasonable amount of pressure.
You can also put the ski on the ground, stand on it and pull up on the boot to see if the brakes move, play around with it until you’re right on the edge with no movement.

I’ve skied at both of those band placements and haven’t had any issues.

YMMV

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Originally Posted by mr_pretzel

Twist the heel back and forth with your hand. Shouldn’t move with a reasonable amount of pressure.
You can also put the ski on the ground, stand on it and pull up on the boot to see if the brakes move, play around with it until you’re right on the edge with no movement.

I’ve skied at both of those band placements and haven’t had any issues.

YMMV

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Solid advice here.

I've also skied with bindings adjusted out and in that far with zero issues.

After testing it out:
standing on the 2x4, the brakes do not move when I pull on either boot.
When standing on the 2x4, I can wiggle the heel sideways a little with the X-Max (285) after a moderate amount of force. Interestingly, when I do the same thing with the Mach 1 (295), I can move it quite a bit more with less force. Even after adjusting the forward pressure (in both directions, including the boot heel lightly touching the heel cup), the heel piece can rotate quite a bit more with the Mach 1. it seems like like the X-Max seems to fit snugger, which is surprising to me since it's the smaller boot and I can't increase the forward pressure as much. I'm probably not going to keep the Mach 1's anyways - they don't fit me great (though I think there's a good chance I'll switch to a 295 boot at some point).

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Originally Posted by skier2265

Snaps in nicely, angled around 80 degrees or so. Seems to rest nicely on the boot heel lugs. No movement in the heel. However, I'm a Pivot newbie and even when I adjusted the heel piece to create more space between the boot and the heel cup, I couldn't really feel a difference.
Attachment 330750
Attachment 330749

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By looks of it...you are money....indicator looks to be right on w/both your boots/pics.

Twist test=no movement in dido or brakes...u are solid.

Attachment 330781

It’s all about the twist test. Using the method of seeing how much clearance there is between the heel and the boot doesn’t really work, because the adjustment doesn’t work on a horizontal plane, the boot will contact the heel cup at different forward pressures depending on where in the adjustment bands the dildo is. Sounds like your mach1 needs an extra turn or 2.

bingo! Mach 1 needed a bunch of turns (moved to the middle of the 2nd notch), now it's testing well. Makes me wonder if I should mount for a smaller BSL, maybe 288mm or so.

It is a farce that Pivots do not have a fairly large adjustment range. I have a 305bsl. I took a pair of skis mounted with Pivots @315 -1 back of suggested line and adjusted the forward pressure, so that now they fit my 305bsl perfectly on the line. The important criteria is where the arms are resting compared to the three arm rings when the bindings are first mounted. (See pic 2). Forward pressure is good when the end of the white tab lines up with the two black tabs (See pic. 3)

For years, I have been under the impression that Pivots could be adjusted only 5-7mm. Now, I believe that there may be up to 17-20mm adjustment possible.
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Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

It is a farce that Pivots do not have a fairly large adjustment range. I have a 305bsl. I took a pair of skis mounted with Pivots @315 -1 back of suggested line and adjusted the forward pressure, so that now they fit my 305bsl perfectly on the line. The important criteria is where the arms are resting compared to the three arm rings when the bindings are first mounted. (See pic 2). Forward pressure is good when the end of the white tab lines up with the two black tabs (See pic. 3)

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you're right, 10mm is fucking generous.

Glad it worked out!


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Good looking skis.

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Originally Posted by schindlerpiste

For years, I have been under the impression that Pivots could be adjusted only 5-7mm. Now, I believe that there may be up to 17-20mm adjustment possible.

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At the back end of the adjustment range, you can start running in to things though. As you back the adjustment screws out, the angle of the adjustment arms closes up, so it can become difficult to get some boots in, and can prevent the heel from snapping up completely. You're not wrong, just something to keep an eye out for.

Quick note on the twist test for the dildo: you're not trying to eliminate lateral movement of the heel on the boot, just limit it. You should not be able to "lightly" move the heel side to side, but you should be able to still move it. It was explained to me that repeatedly moving within the elastic travel can cause the dildo to shift side to side, which can effect elastic travel and therefore retention in subsequent movements. So the dildo needs to be able to recenter, if its too tight it can increase the likelihood of prerelease.

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Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX

you're not trying to eliminate lateral movement of the heel on the boot, just limit it. You should not be able to "lightly" move the heel side to side, but you should be able to still move it.

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Read through this entire thread and still don't have a real sense of what lightly means in this context. Can someone who knows what they're doing take a video of the play in the dildo with forward pressure properly setup?

Following the various instructions in this thread now has my heel slid forward enough that the boot pushes the heel piece back a couple of mm before the dildo snaps up, and that doesn't seem right...

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Originally Posted by tdpdx

Read through this entire thread and still don't have a real sense of what lightly means in this context. Can someone who knows what they're doing take a video of the play in the dildo with forward pressure properly setup?

Following the various instructions in this thread now has my heel slid forward enough that the boot pushes the heel piece back a couple of mm before the dildo snaps up, and that doesn't seem right...

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If, after reading this thread, you still can’t sort it out, you should have somebody else do it. Not trying to be mean or anything.... it’s not like those bindings are all that fiddly though.

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Originally Posted by tdpdx

Read through this entire thread and still don't have a real sense of what lightly means in this context. Can someone who knows what they're doing take a video of the play in the dildo with forward pressure properly setup?

Following the various instructions in this thread now has my heel slid forward enough that the boot pushes the heel piece back a couple of mm before the dildo snaps up, and that doesn't seem right...

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The dildo should be tight, but not so tight you can't move it; that could result in injury.