NSR - I am sorry to say...

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
HEH, LS and BH I wasn't justifying a goddamned thing they did. read the whole thread. Jetter asserted this was as bad as My Lai. I responded.

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The reason I said that this is on par with My Lai is not in context to what actually took place (slaughter of innocents vs. torture of possible militants [whom might actually be innocent too]). What I meant was in term of how wrong and horrifying the event was, and in terms of impact on the war effort. This event is certainly not going to help things. While I bust my ass every night to make sure that the aircraft that ferry these guys in and out, and deliver them their critically-needed supplies (like blood for transfusions) are fully functional, I don't want my work to be in vain. These guys lashing out in the way they did, probably because they don't like where they are and want to go home, does this nation (and my work) a great disservice. And that pisses me off. I for one thought we had a chance to do something good here for these people, and stuff like this makes our work harder. And god knows I don't need any more difficulty in my work, thank you.

Now I've been deprived of sleep and threatened by cops with their K-9 dogs and forced to shower with 60 other dudes a couple of times, that's just a part of the 'training' I've had to go through. But never ever ever can I imagine a cop releasing his K-9 to attack a prisoner who isn't a threat, and isn't doing anything. I'm referring to the 2 public images of the dog sicking the prisoner, one the before shot of the dog and his handler and the second the dog standing over the prisoner crumpled on the floor, with blood pooling everywhere. That is fucked up

I realize that there are those out there with their own agenda, or whom have strong feelings on the whole war in the first place, but I don't think there was malice at the top here. Maybe Rummy should have been held accountable for the conduct of a few of his troopers, but that was the President's call to make and he made it. IMO, it wasn't Rummy's policies that were at fault here, but probably local policies and a failure of attention and oversight.

Gen Taguba today admitted that the leadership and supervision was inadequate(go here if you want to see), but I don't think Gen Karpinski's relief of command and reprimand are going to suffice. Also the MI (military intelligence) world needs some serious investigation too, although that area's murky at best and will take time.

the one positive thing I've seen out of this process yet was last friday. ABC news said that Sec. Rumsfeld's questioning before congress was broadcasted throughout the world, in particular on Arab networks. The Arabs were said to be incredulous, never had they seen a Defense minister held accountable or questioned over the actions of their military. Usually those guys get a blank check and are above questioning in that world. Democracy at work.

Reading the news article about Nick Berg is just horrific. Not for the weak of stomach.

Action - Reaction.

Roo, wrong. Remember Daniel Pearl? This is a pattern by Al Qaeda.

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
SC, more CO mini pic's less political post.;)

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They are coming... Lone Star is uploading some awesome pics as we speak.

John McCain is the person I respect most in the national leadership at this time. I thought he was asking some tough questions but I did expect some more independence from him in these matters.

Try telling the Berg family that.

maybe he could have ended up like the Italian whose face they blew off??

me thinks this will not get the same play on CNN, New Yorker, and the NYT as the US army "atrocities". In fact, I can't wait to see the first Ted Rall cartoon about how Nick Berg deserved this.

what a cesspool of utter depravity and horror...

Jetter- good stuff

just a few thoughts - if the US does react as a democracy should then there could be a bit of positive come out of it. Somewhat of the high ground can be maintained.

These guys and girls were MPs they know the rules. Simple. It seems that they were given leave to break the rules and did some stupid shit for their own enterainment ( white trash reversists).

Was it as bad as killing some people? No in our minds but in the Arab mind? sexually humiliated by white women and pictures. To the Arab mind its probably worse.

JR a while back in this thread mentioned a Canadian incident. BAsically soldiers caught a teen who snuck into the Canadian camp to steal stuff and tortured him to death. Again stupid enough to take pictures.

Real story- My company sent people over before the incident and they can back with that some Somalias were stealing stuff and their opinion was that the soldiers would probably kill somebody . Also that the Belgians had had the same problem until they caught one , killed him , chopped off his head and put it on a stick outside the camp. No more stealing. Locals - ok these guys are tough and not to be shit with.


Point if there is one is that its ok to be tough but not stupid.

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
maybe he could have ended up like the Italian whose face they blew off??

me thinks this will not get the same play on CNN, New Yorker, and the NYT as the US army "atrocities". In fact, I can't wait to see the first Ted Rall cartoon about how Nick Berg deserved this.

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Simply amazing...

Roo, who is Charles Moore?

he's penned a great article in the Telegraph today.

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
me thinks this will not get the same play on CNN, New Yorker, and the NYT as the US army "atrocities". In fact, I can't wait to see the first Ted Rall cartoon about how Nick Berg deserved this.

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I think it's been pretty well established by this point that al Qaida is a terrorist organization. Acts of terror and murder are their whole raison d'etre. I believe the U.S. Army has a slightly different credo.

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Originally posted by mr_gyptian
Roo, who is Charles Moore?

he's penned a great article in the Telegraph today.

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Editor: Charles Moore

Owned by: Conrad Black

The Daily Telegraph well known for its right-wing slant, is generally considered the paper of the Conservative Party and has been dubbed "The Daily Fascist" on university campuses across the country. The Daily Telegraph is part of Hollinger International Inc, which is owned by Conrad Black. Hollinger's media holdings include The Sunday Telegraph, The Spectator, and The Jerusalem Post. All publications, of course, are also renown for their pro-Israeli, right wing coverage.

http://mpacuk.org/mpac/data/ff679559/ff679559.jsp

That one got me. They definitely play by a different set of rules over there. Almost makes the M.P.'s actions at Abu Ghraib look like a fraternity prank. Almost.

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Originally posted by Buster Highmen
Editor: Charles Moore

Owned by: Conrad Black

The Daily Telegraph well known for its right-wing slant, is generally considered the paper of the Conservative Party and has been dubbed "The Daily Fascist" on university campuses across the country. The Daily Telegraph is part of Hollinger International Inc, which is owned by Conrad Black. Hollinger's media holdings include The Sunday Telegraph, The Spectator, and The Jerusalem Post. All publications, of course, are also renown for their pro-Israeli, right wing coverage.

http://mpacuk.org/mpac/data/ff679559/ff679559.jsp

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nice link, are they a sister organization of that fine institution CAIR?

Ok... so now an Al Qaeda affiliated group has beheaded a US civvie in Iraq, videoed it, and put it on the net calling it fair revenge.

SO WHERE'S THE FUCKING OUTRAGE FROM AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, KOFI ANAN, MUSLIM WORLD, THE RED CROSS, CAIR ETC?

Do they think two wrongs make a right or what??????

Come the fuck on!

Then you have complete paranoid schitzo lunitards like the DU claiming that he was actually executed by Americans dressed as Al Qaeda to take the heat off the scandal.

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news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ascii&q=beheaded


http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...5E1702,00.html

US hostage 'beheaded on video'
From correspondents in Cairo
12may04

A VIDEO posted today on an Islamic militant website appeared to show a group affiliated with al-Qaeda beheading an American in Iraq, saying the death was revenge for the prisoner-abuse scandal.

The video showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks, standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit who identified himself as an American from Philadelphia.
After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and cutting off his head with a large knife. They then held the head out before the camera.

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When those sadistic short bus rejects took pictures of prisoner abuse, they at least never intended it for public consumption nor did they kill anyone. Moral equivelency? Hell no! Justification? Hell no! But there is really bad and then there is worse.

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"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

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But what is going to continue to be shown on CNN? Abused Iraqis or beheaded Americans? Should be both... but *guess* which one they'll show! Ditto for the world media...

Some good points from many people -- Jetter, IMHO, has been right on with many things though he's only close on some of the technical military procedures. Thanks for some really awesome consciousness.

Alot of you are pointing to the Geneva Conventions in this analysis. Though that, and specifically Common Article 3, is a place to start, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is really what we should be talking about. More than anything, this is a fundamental human rights issue and customary international law, together with the two aforementioned legal authorities, clearly states that torture or other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment is a violation. Jetter points out the grey areas of our military intelligence community and so on, and I guess his point -- and mine -- is that there is no "AQ" or "terrorist" exception. The lack of oversight IS a failure of leadership.

Deeply disturbed by the emerging story, but there really are many great people doing extraordinarily positive things out there. I hope all their efforts aren't lost or unnoticed. But, understandably, it's hard to concentrate on what is straight ahead if there is a train wreck to the right...

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Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
Ok... so now an Al Qaeda affiliated group has beheaded a US civvie in Iraq, videoed it, and put it on the net calling it fair revenge.

SO WHERE'S THE FUCKING OUTRAGE FROM AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, KOFI ANAN, MUSLIM WORLD, THE RED CROSS, CAIR ETC?

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Quite honestly, Summit, I don't give a fuck about civilian contrators who travel the world's danger zones to make a living or whatever. They understand what they're getting into, they know the risks.

The United States armed forces represents us and I hold them to the highest standards of all of the world's military services. I also demand accountability at all levels. The grunts may very well be guilty of abusing POWs, but it's ridiculous to to expect that their superior officers didn't know or are not responsible.

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Originally posted by Viva The United States armed forces represents us and I hold them to the highest standards of all of the world's military services. I also demand accountability at all levels. The grunts may very well be guilty of abusing POWs, but it's ridiculous to to expect that their superior officers didn't know or are not responsible.

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I agree 100%!

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Originally posted by Viva
Quite honestly, Summit, I don't give a fuck about civilian contrators who travel the world's danger zones to make a living or whatever. They understand what they're getting into, they know the risks.

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OK... let me understand your attitude...
is it...

"It's only bad if the US military brutalizes Muslims, not vice versa or if Muslims murder US civilians"?

That 26 y/o american was there to repair antenna towers to help rebuild Iraq and catch some cash in the meantime.

Perhaps you think "He deserved what he got! How dare he try and make some money trying to help rebuild a shattered country."?

I'm sorry... did he do something bad?

perhaps you think "Al Qaeda is justified in taking revenge on American civilians"?

Maybe they were justified in 9-11 too? Afterall the infidel Americans set foot in the holy land and support Israel.

I'm sorry Viva, but your unbelievable nonchalant attitude towards the brutally slaughter of this poor 26 year old man with a family who was just trying to get by is cruel, uncaring, and totally unjustifiable.

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"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

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Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
bla bla bla bla bla short bus rejects bla bla bla bla bla bla

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Speaking of short bus rejects....

http://www.biglines.com/photos/blpic23435.jpg

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Originally posted by SummitCo 1776
I'm sorry Viva, but your unbelievable nonchalant attitude towards the brutally slaughter of this poor 26 year old man with a family who was just trying to get by is cruel, uncaring, and totally unjustifiable.

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I've got to agree with Summit on this. Yes, Nick Berg knew he was working in a very dangerous area, but what happened to him was truly horrendous.

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Originally posted by The AD
I've got to agree with Summit on this. Yes, Nick Berg knew he was working in a very dangerous area, but what happened to him was truly horrendous.

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"Dr. Samuel Johnson's right about Olson Johnson being right"

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Originally posted by grrrr
"Dr. Samuel Johnson's right about Olson Johnson being right"

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I didn't get a h-rumph outta that guy...

First, there's no need for anyone to justify their positions or attitudes. We're simply sharing our feelings on what, I think, we all agree is a painful subject.

No, there's nothing wrong with going to Iraq to make some cash by doing legitmate work/business. I don't have a problem with that and, yes, it does suck that that guy was killed by the extremists. However, he knew what he was getting into. I respect his decision to go into Iraq, but he must live (or die) with the consequences. That's life, Doood.

And, no, I've no sympathy for religous extremists. Can't stand em.

I am glad to see that everyone is upset about what is happening and what this country has caused. We have the power to change that, and it is simple: Do not vote Bush in November. He is an irresponsible man with irresponsible advisors that are not concerned with long term outcomes of their current actions. I think they should be ashamed of themselves and ashamed of tarnishing the US' worldwide reputation.

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Originally posted by cumerritt
I am glad to see that everyone is upset about what is happening and what this country has caused. We have the power to change that, and it is simple: Do not vote Bush in November. He is an irresponsible man with irresponsible advisors that are not concerned with long term outcomes of their current actions. I think they should be ashamed of themselves and ashamed of tarnishing the US' worldwide reputation.

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Says the guy living in the biggest liberal stronghold next to San Francisco.

What this country has caused? Dude, lay off the pipe. This has to do with extremist wacko Muslims that want it to be 1700 A.D. again. When they were the world scholars and explorers. When they were the military and economic power in the world.When they were regarded as the superpower.

Unfortunately for them, they didn't pay attention to what the rest of the world was doing, and we all surpassed them in every way imagineable. When they realised what was happening to their culture, it was becoming increasingly outdated, it was too late.

Don't say we started this mess, we are just the one's with balls enough to try and change the middle east's view of us. Is it working? Seemingly not, if you believe what you see on the news.

I have a lot of friends based at MacDill AFB. I play ultimate with these guys every wed. night. Believe me, they have seen it first hand, and they know what is really going on there. Most here would not want to hear the postives, but they far outweigh the negatives. When is the last time you heard anything positive about this war on the news? Yeah, I haven't heard it yet either. Does that say something about our country?

I was not pleased with what happened to those prisoners, but it didn't deserve as much attention as it got.

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Originally posted by warthog
I was not pleased with what happened to those prisoners, but it didn't deserve as much attention as it got.

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http://www.antiwar.com/photos/perm/torture7.jpg

Will this war be justifiable when the death toll exceeds that of 9/11? That is why we are there, right?

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Originally posted by powderhound
Will this war be justifiable when the death toll exceeds that of 9/11? That is why we are there, right?

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The death toll of Iraqis? You'll find that happened way back when.

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Originally posted by bad_roo
The death toll of Iraqis? You'll find that happened way back when.

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The death toll in Afghanistan (remember that little attack?) surpassed that of 9/11 within about six months, many of them civilians.

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Says the guy living in the biggest liberal stronghold next to San Francisco.

What this country has caused? Dude, lay off the pipe. This has to do with extremist wacko Muslims that want it to be 1700 A.D. again. When they were the world scholars and explorers. When they were the military and economic power in the world.When they were regarded as the superpower.

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Unfortunately for them, they didn't pay attention to what the rest of the world was doing, and we all surpassed them in every way imagineable. When they realised what was happening to their culture, it was becoming increasingly outdated, it was too late.

Don't say we started this mess, we are just the one's with balls enough to try and change the middle east's view of us. Is it working? Seemingly not, if you believe what you see on the news.

I have a lot of friends based at MacDill AFB. I play ultimate with these guys every wed. night. Believe me, they have seen it first hand, and they know what is really going on there. Most here would not want to hear the postives, but they far outweigh the negatives. When is the last time you heard anything positive about this war on the news? Yeah, I haven't heard it yet either. Does that say something about our country?

I was not pleased with what happened to those prisoners, but it didn't deserve as much attention as it got.[/QUOTE]

Captain Hog, glad to see you know what is really going on in Iraq. You should fill us all in on what you and your military buds know so we can see that this is all because of those Muslim wackos wanting to live in 1700 AD.

None of it is right and I do not think it cannot be justified.

It is clear we dont agree on the issue, but dont knock me for expressing my opinion about what is going on. You dont see me calling you the biggest tool on the face of the earth for leaving CO to live in FL.

And the death toll of Iraqis by Americans has surpassed that of the past five years of Saddam's terror. Such is inevitable in a war, but it is yet another recruiting tool for al Quada.

The problem is that even if we "win" the Iraq battle, it will be a loss in the "war on terrorism". Arabs were far more tolerent of Saddam's insanity than they ever will be of ours. Regardless of how much good we do, we will leave this conflict as the enemy, and the enemy will have grown.

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Originally posted by cumerritt
You dont see me calling you the biggest tool on the face of the earth for leaving CO to live in FL.

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Hah! Cunning! I can see what you did there.

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Originally posted by grrrr
Arabs were far more tolerent of Saddam's insanity than they ever will be of ours. Regardless of how much good we do, we will leave this conflict as the enemy, and the enemy will have grown.

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Hit it right on the the nose there.

IMHO

The travesty here is that in the long run, the Iraqi people will be freer and safer with far more control over their own destiny than they could have possibly hoped for without a war to rid them of Saddam (except maybe the Kurds... but they always get the short end of the stick). Their economy will rebuild with UN sanctions lifted and their oil flowing again without corrupt dictators and ministers siphoning off all the profits.

The USA will end the conflict with its tail between its legs, a massive war debt on the books, great stacks of coffins and wounded, a realization that we spent time, money, resources, and lives in Iraq that were probably better "used" elsewhere, and a great surplus of ill-will from the Arabs and the world at large that was much larger than before the war and certainly not deserving of what in the end will balance out to be a good deed on the part of the US *IF* we stick with this "project" we started and see it through to completion rather than giving it up. We will be mired in the rebuilding for the next 5-10 years if we want to do it right.

Until President Jenna Bush invades 'em all over again.

"Captain Hog, glad to see you know what is really going on in Iraq. You should fill us all in on what you and your military buds know so we can see that this is all because of those Muslim wackos wanting to live in 1700 AD.

None of it is right and I do not think it cannot be justified.

It is clear we dont agree on the issue, but dont knock me for expressing my opinion about what is going on. You dont see me calling you the biggest tool on the face of the earth for leaving CO to live in FL."

CUMerritt-
I don't remember calling you a tool at all. Should I ?

People are allowed to have different opinions. I told you to lay off the pipe, which, given your school and surroundings, is not an unreasonable assumption. I too was a Boulderite at one time.

The comment about the liberal stronghold, well, are you denying it? I would say that 99% of the population of the Republic of Boulder agrees 100% with what you said. I guess I just question the source, since it is wayyyy coool in Boulder to be anti-Bush. In fact, everyone there is so busy being"different" than everyone else, they hardly notice that they are all the same. Know what I mean?

As for where I live, yeah I know it isn't ideal for skiing proximity. But, talk to me when you graduate(I am assuming you are still a student) and try to find a good job in Boulder. Sure, waiting on tables pays the bills, but it wasn't worth it for me. I lived there, loved it, and left before I became sick of it. I will always have great memories of that place.

Some of us make extreme sacrifices to ski all the time, and I respect that, and did that. A lot of us sacrifice skiing time to make a living and support a family. I go skiing almost every vacation day I have. 2-3 weeks a year isn't all that bad. Plus, I make about 10 times what I did in Boulder. Tough choice, but I made it and don't regret it. Plus, I still ski better than most of my buddies that live in ski country- go figure. Maybe they need to get out more.


As for what my buddys know about what is going on in Iraq, it has nothing to do with the reason we are there. It has to do with the reception they received. The media paints this negative picture of our presence there, which couldn't be further from the truth. Most have welcomed the troops with open arms. They are happy we are there, and realise what we have done. Why is that so hard to show on the news? Why can't the cameraman pan out a bit and show that the"unruly mob" protesting the troops is actually only about 100 people? They don't do that, cause it doesn't make for good news. We are not getting the whole story.

I just watched futurerama last night, it was funny and somehow applicable, I just cant decide how.

In the last scene the aliens from omachron percies iv were going to eat Lilla. As she stood waiting to be eaten in an arena, the crew decided to switch her with an ape.

The ape had an eye patch and makeup applied. This ploy succeded to fool the aliens, who were about to eat the ape. While the hole world wached, knowing that is was just a ploy. Just as the ape was about to be eaten a hippe jumps out. He yells thats not lilla thats an orangutang.... and runins the whole plan....

Wow man, you blew my mind with that one DuBu. The pipe musta been passed your way.

Hippies, indeed.

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Originally posted by dubu
I just watched futurerama last night, it was funny and somehow applicable, I just cant decide how.

In the last scene the aliens from omachron percies iv were going to eat Lilla. As she stood waiting to be eaten in an arena, the crew decided to switch her with an ape.

The ape had an eye patch and makeup applied. This ploy succeded to fool the aliens, who were about to eat the ape. While the hole world wached, knowing that is was just a ploy. Just as the ape was about to be eaten a hippe jumps out. He yells thats not lilla thats an orangutang.... and runins the whole plan....

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HAHHAAHH watched that last night... never crossed my mind how it applied here. Good call!

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Originally posted by Twoplanker
[B] Safety for our troops on the ground is important, but ensuring that safety by having the government attempt to manipulate and suppress information is antithetical to the premise of the US Constitution.

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but then so is almost everything else the bush administration has done, begining with eleminating the rights of thousands of voters in Florida.

One thing that surprised me a little is how surprised people are about this whole mess (although I'm surprised they took pictures of it). Did anyone really think people were being detained indefinitely, without having to have any charges brought against them, let alone being convicted of any crime, and without the notification of their families/ friends/ lawyers... or anybody for that mater being reguired so that they could play cards and enjoy tea time in the afternoon? (Of course this fate was not a worry for members of Bin Laden family, who were flown out of the country with presidential permission while air travel was still banned right after the attack). This is the same Bin Laden family, who owns the company that got the contract to rebuild the U.S. embassies in east africa after they were bombed.

This scandal becoming so public is definitly going to do lasting damage to our image as the benevolent empire, and it will be a while before the neocon propaganda machine can spin this under control. I guess the lesson is, never send ordinary service men and women to do the job of highly trained CIA operatives or even beter still, CIA trained assets (like, say, Osama Bin Laden) from within the targeted country. That way the non-covert sections of the government are at least two steps away from the direct perpetrators of the crimes. We have the "School of the America's" to handle the training of "death squads" in such countries as El Salvador, Colombia, etc..., but given the current state of world affairs why not a "School of the Middle East" as well? After all, given our failed attempt to topple the democratically elected and widely popular (but unnacceptably un-puppet-like) Hugo Chavez in oil rich Venezuela, and with the ongoing civil war and instability in Colombia conributing to our lack of total control over the regions oil, we are going to have to continue to look for ways to control the middle east if we want complete global supremacy.

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Originally posted by grrrr
Cut the guy some slack. He was probably stoned when he said that.

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Now that was just mean spirited and unfair. I think you owe a big appology
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to all weed smokers ;)