Bring the cash wad with you next time.
in the end though, if you really want the car what does an extra 750 mean? Not much, not much at all.
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Bring the cash wad with you next time.
in the end though, if you really want the car what does an extra 750 mean? Not much, not much at all.
I just went through this whole thing. To give you some idea of how much they'll budge, I ended up paying $10K LESS than what the retail sticker was on the truck at the lot. Granted, nobody pays retail, but buy being persistant and due to my luck that they didn't sell the rig otherwise, I broke the bastard down.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowfire
Find a few vehicles on the web that you like. Call them and make sure they're exactly what you're looking for. Then start the bidding. DO NOT believe "we put our lowest price on the web" because it's total bullshit in most cases. Once you find one or two that are in the neighborhood, go check them out. If one or both worth, tell the dealer you want "your own mechanic" to check it out. Then take it to a COMPETING dealer and tell the mechanics to find something wrong with it. They won't lie, but they'll happilly tell you about ANYTHING that looks remotely suspect. Then go back to the dealer with a list of "potential problems valued at $XXX in repairs" and demand he subtract that off the negotiated price. In my case, the repairs that were supposedly needed added up to about $500 but the guy didn't want to budge since their mechanics didn't find anything. So in the end, I got him to throw in a 100K/3 year bumper to bumper warranty on the vehicle (it had 48K miles) for free which pretty much sealed the deal since all the potential problems and much, much, much more was covered.
Just don't settle. Those guys can almost always go lower!
snowfire you keep saying XJ's are "so big" - their wheel base is only 8" longer than a TJ.(93in vs 101in if remeber right)..thats less than the length of your foot....granted they have more body hanging past the rear axle too, and a lower brake over angle because of that....but unless your doing technical rock crawling it wont matter....if it does, slightly lift it and put 31's on....
Per Edmunds.com, specs for a 2000 Subaru Impreza Outback wagon, and for a 2000 Jeep Cherokee 4WD:Quote:
Originally Posted by LaramieSkiBum
Subaru:
Exterior
Length: 172.2 in. Width: 67.1 in.
Height: 55.5 in. Wheel Base: 99.2 in.
Ground Clearance: 5.7 in. Curb Weight: 2835 lbs.
Interior
Front Head Room: 39.2 in. Front Hip Room: 51 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 52.6 in. Rear Head Room: 37.4 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 51.8 in. Rear Hip Room: 52.6 in.
Front Leg Room: 43.1 in. Rear Leg Room: 32.4 in.
Luggage Capacity: 25.5 cu. ft. Maximum Seating: 5
Jeep:
Exterior
Length: 167.5 in. Width: 69.4 in.
Height: 64 in. Wheel Base: 101.4 in.
Ground Clearance: 8.1 in. Curb Weight: 3305 lbs.
Interior
Front Head Room: 37.7 in. Front Hip Room: 54.8 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 54.7 in. Rear Head Room: 38 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 54.7 in. Rear Hip Room: 44.3 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.4 in. Rear Leg Room: 35 in.
Luggage Capacity: 34 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 66 cu. ft.
Maximum Seating: 5
So the Jeep XJ is taller and slightly wider than the Subaru, but actually shorter bumper-to-bumper. Jeep has more interior space and more ground clearance.
Snowfire, here's one to look into....a green 97 impreza outback sport, manual transmission, 85,100miles, somewhere int he denver area, asking 7,900 for it right now. maybe you can get it looked at and talk them down?
[url]http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=191005139&dealer_id=485915&car_year =1997&model=&bkms=1131671605830&make2=sel_one&lang =&isp=y&start_year=1995&engine=&certified=&fuel=&s earch_type=used&distance=300&make=SUB&color=&min_p rice=1&drive=&max_mileage=&address=80201&advanced= y&end_year=2006&doors=&transmission=Manual&max_pri ce=10000&cardist=6[/url
found this through edmunds.com, if you haven't searched there yet, give a shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chupacabra
Subaru: 29-30 hwy, 22-24 city mpg.
Jeep: 21-22 hwy, 16-17 city mpg.
That's another consideration right there. I figured the Wrangler would get more mpg than the Cherokee because it's smaller, which is why I was considering it. Apparently, it actually gets less mpg so it's pretty much not a consideration anymore. Subarus are SO expensive, though... might start looking at cherokees this weekend.
I tried a 96 Legacy sedan tonight, has 97 k miles on it but is in excellent condition with all maintenance records and only 1 owner for $5500. I'm setting my sights a bit lower- older car and higher miles- to stay within my price range.
Lemon, the reason that an extra $750 is a problem is because I really don't have that kind of money. I could scrape it together, but should I for that car? Probably not when I really shouldn't be paying that much anyways. I pretty much set my total limit, tax and all, at $8k.
For what you're getting, Subarus really aren't all that expensive. But I know what you mean.
Go back in there with you're game face on, and let em have it. Tell him you got another independent seller your looking at, no dealer fees, etc. Take it to a mechanic and find something wrong, and make em split it with you. You can get them down some more, I believe:D .
If not, just tell them you're internet friends will beat the crap outta them.;)
True - Japanese economy cars get better mileage than American SUVs. But I thought your main complaint about the Cherokee was it's size. Anyway, expect to get mileage (for any vehicle) that's closer to the EPA quoted city MPG, not highway. This has to do with their obsolete testing cycle (something like a 48 MPH test for "highway" speed mileage, on a certain type of road, etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by snowfire
Do you drive enough miles per year for this to make a big difference (24ish vs. 17ish)? If so, Subaru.
a few months ago i found a 99 OBS for a friend with just over 100k miles on it and the guy was asking 7500....after taking it to a mechanic and finding a few things that needed fixing and noticing there were a couple "incidents" that were not previously disclosed, AND playing hardball, (we actually thought it was over and left with no car, and then the guy called back 5 hours later and even drove it up to SLC to drop it off that same night) he finally came down to 6K.
also, for what it's worth....i can't tell you how many times i've been behind a jeep on a snowy hill and watched the jeep struggle and fish tail to get up it only to then drive right up like it was drive pavement in my subie. I mean, maybe they just had crappy tires...i don't know....
cherokees suck ass in snow....unless you put sand bags in the rear (thats what i used to do), even then I have done donuts while hardly turning on slush/ice at 25mph...
you'll probably save the difference between a subi and jeep just in gas mileage.
TJ's are heavy (3900lbs unloaded)...old school iron block, straight axles and body on frame.....Cherokees are probably only a few hundred pounds heavier...max...probably less...XJ's / ZJ's have one lighter unibody/frame, but all the same drive train, save leaf springs in the rear
The reason TJ's get less gas mileage than a cherokee is air resistance...size and weight don't matter nearly as much as air resistance....Cardboard box + all that wind hitting the tires + high ground clearance so air gets hung up underneith too....
that said, last time I looked at Outback weights they were actually heavier than a TJ if I remeber - all that drive train = weight...which with the low CG and long wheel base of an outback is actually good for traction
edit: i was wrong, subies are about 400lbs lighter
She already ran the VIN on that one, it was involved in an accident. Might be worth a second look though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx
Haha! That might be the only option. I never realized how many Subies were in Denver until I started helping Snowfire with this search. Subies sell like hotcakes in D-town. Snowfire has already made offers and subsequently walked away from two deals b/c the dealer was not willing to go more than $250 below the KBB dealer suggested retail. Mind you the dealer suggested retail prices are usually ~$2K above the KBB private party values for these cars and are usually considered to be a jumping off point for negotiation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z
These dealers are stubborn bastards b/c they know that these cars will sell for stupidly high prices around here.
Anyway, a sincere thanks to everyone for all the beta. This thread has been a good source of info on the various models.
yeah this has become a much bigger pain in the ass than I would have ever imagined. I'm thinking of going for the '96 Legacy sedan, but need to find out if I can mount ski racks on it- it doesn't have rain gutters. That would be a deal-breaker if I couldn't mount anything on it.
Thanks again for all the info/advice. It's definitely helped, even if I don't come out of all of this with a car, at least I know a lot more than I did before. :cool:
You can put a Thule or Yakima on pretty much every vehicle made; Subaru's are fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowfire
snowfire
keep up on the subaru hunt. love mine.
freakin ski machine, cruised through whiteout storms, -40, and 6" of watery slush in valdez. and i have the regular legacy wagon. have only had one clearance issue, driving back to dipnet on the copper river, big bouldery drop that i couldn't get by, and the occassional snowdrift flying over the hood of the car...but that is kind of fun.
good luck.
Lemon, the cherokee sport is the one.
something to think about when looking at a jeep. an interesting caveat I've learned since I started to do the auction buying for our chrysler store. Neither chrysler financial nor Chase will stand behind the differentials or transfer cases on Jeep vehicles. If either of those are bad, you're fucked(normally dealers get anywhere from 3 to 10 days to find frame and mechanical problems on a vehicle).
the subaru should treat you fine. plus you'll get much better fuel mileage with the subaru.
dood, i'm in phoenix. let me know if you want to check anything out...could be good for a weekend road trip. Also buying a car here will assure you no winter wear...yet These are from the autotrader, there are pics but I didn't feel like fucking with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowfire
for example
Price $6,000
Body Style Wagon
Mileage 114,600
Exterior Color Green
Interior Color Grey
Engine 4 Cylinder Gasoline
Transmission Manual
Drive Type All wheel drive
Fuel Type Gasoline
Doors Four Door
VIN 4S3BG6851W6637086
1998 SUBARU OUTBACK, 114,600 mi, airbag, ac, ps, cc, tilt, pw, am fm, pdl, p/mirrors, green & grey paint, exc cond, have maint records, must see, $6,000, 480-636-1049,
Driver Air Bag; Anti-Lock Brakes; Air Conditioning; Alloy Wheels; AM/FM Radio; Cruise Control; Compact Disc Player; Passenger Air Bag; Rear Window Defroster; Power Door Locks; Power Mirrors; Power Windows; Power Steering; Tilt Wheel;
*******
Price $5,400
Body Style Wagon
Mileage 95,000
Exterior Color Silver
Interior Color Grey
Engine 4 Cylinder Gasoline
Transmission 4 Speed Automatic with Electronic Overdrive
Drive Type All wheel drive
Fuel Type Gasoline
Doors Four Door
VIN 4S3BK6355S7350571
1995 SUBARU LEGACY, 95K mi, air bag, ac, ps, cc, tilt, p/windows, stereo, pdl, p/mirrors, $5,400, 602-478-7954,
Driver Air Bag; Air Conditioning; Cruise Control; Passenger Air Bag; Rear Window Defroster; AM/FM Stereo Cassette; Power Door Locks; Power Mirrors; Power Windows; Power Steering; Tilt Wheel;
***
Price $4,800
Body Style Wagon
Mileage N/A
1996 SUBARU OUTBACK, 165K miles, ABS, ac, ps, cc, pw, ski rack, runs & drives exc, $4800 obo, 602-751-0946,
Still nothing around here. I don't really want to road trip somewhere, that would defeat the purpose of keeping the price low. thanks for checking though!
I think I'm just going to give up for a few weeks until it really gets to crunch time. then I'll get something that might not be what I want but will get me through the next few years.
Still debating on the 96 OBS with 63K miles on it for $7250. I just don't feel comfortable paying that much for a ten year old car, but it might be the closest thing to what I'm looking for that will be available in the next couple weeks.
Ummmm if a road trip costs you $500 but saves you $2500 then at least my rudimentary math skillz sez that's a good deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowfire
LeMon does have a pretty valid point, especially given the prices i'm seeing in relation to the one your sniffing around currently. Just fly southwest or AMwest, they are super cheap. I'm sure there are mags that'll help ya out, take a few pics of the engine and the rest of the shit and give you a pretty candid and honest assessment of the junk. Then you can pay pal the seller 250 or 500 to hold. it's definitely worth the "trouble" if you're picking up a sub that is one owner and has all the main't history etc. Plus, assuming you're in front range/denver cor., gas will cost you less than a bill from AZ. You can show up, brandish the wad and make an additional attempt to nickle and dime them down a bit...cry about gas and the flight...it's amazing what you can squeeze out of someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by lemon boy
I vote you got this route.
Some of those suby prices do seem high.
i paid $7000 for a 1997 Legacy Outback w/ 76K
I vote for a VW Jetta TDI with good snow tires.
Seriously, my VW with snowtires goes anywhere, as long as I don't get high centered.
well I think my search MAY be over, thanks to GFP... :D
He found me a 99 OBS with 78K miles on it, one owner. I tried it out tonight in Boulder, was the first one to look at it (they just got it today) and I really liked it. It's a very small dealer, father-son, they only have like 10 cars on the lot. No handling fee or anything. I'm getting it for $7500 if everything checks out well at the mechanic tomorrow. It's quite a bit below blue book value so I'm crossing my fingers that they don't find something hugely wrong with it. I figure there must be something for them to have priced it like that. If not though...damn, I'll be happy. :D
That's exactly what the dealers are counting on. It's a very, very common tactic.Quote:
Originally Posted by lemon boy
There's two things at work here:
1) The commitment trick
They get you to unwittingly mentally commit to wanting a particular car, and feeling "responsible" for the deal. Done correctly, this is a very powerful manipulation tool for salespeople. There's a huge number of tricks they use to do this, some of which are quite insidious. A benign example is making you write down a price which causes you to become subconciously committed if you aren't aware of this trick. A more sleazy example is having the salesman "accidently" give you a price that is "too low", and just before the paperwork goes through, they "discover" the error... but by the time in the process many people are so committed to the deal, they'll go through with it at the new higher, "correct" price. Things like "dealer fees" are the same deal.
2) Reduced price sensitivity
When you're buying a $20,000 car, "throwing in another $100" seems like nothing. Ever wonder why roof racks and the like are so damn expensive when you buy them from the dealer? The reason is that when a customer is buying a car, all these others expenses seem quite small in comparision and it becomes mentally easy to "just throw in the extras now... it's not much". Don't fall for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowfire
False alarm. The car was a lemon. :cussing: Back to the drawing board. Now I'm actually considering going to Dallas. :nonono2:
Yikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by snowfire
Anytime you consider going to Dallas, you know times is rough.