Is it World War III

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Originally Posted by fattwins

The war that created Hezbolla, created a strong force that helped to get a pretty nasty israelli army out. The Golon Hieghts, buffer zones the shaba farms, we are talking about land grabs that even the UN has said are illegal. Hezbolla as a group can not be just broken up by either side as it is a strong product of long running war. I dare say that Hezbolla will get stronger now that the conflict is spreading.

Its time to sit down and discuss. If both sides actually listened to the UN and actually followed the rulings there would be nothing to fight over. Instead Israel makes more settlments and Hezbolla, the PLO fight the only way they can guerrilla warfare.

Having live in North America and lived aboard I will say that the news is so unbalanced in the states towards the Israelis. Terrorists attack inocent settlers in bold big letters. Never explaining that the settlers are considered occupiers by the other side and the UN.

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After the 1948 war started by Syria it was required to demilitarize the Golan Heights under the Israel-Syria Armistice agreement. However after Syria shelled Israeli villages 3000 ft below for the following 18yrs, Israel decided to keep the Golan heights in 1967, and after Yom Kippur, Syria signed a cease fire agreement leaving it in Israeli hands. Un resolution 242 required Israel to give it back and for Syria to recognize Israel, neither has happened. most recently Israel offered almost all of it back to Syria in 2000 for full recognition, Syria refused.

While Israeli settlements in the Golan and other territories were totally unjust, it does not justify the targeting and killing of civilians.

My opinion is that if Syria had not attacked or provoked Israel from day one,and offered it recognition, Israel would have never needed to secure that high ground.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Or at some point the Arabs can stop using civilian shields for their military wares. It's widely known (and has been pointed out here and many other places) that Hezbollah intentionally situated itself in civilian areas to avoid attacks, and to guarantee civilian damage when attacked.

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Well, since Hezbollah is a paramilitary organization with a political arm, I would say for the same reason the IRA does. Yet nobody is leveling whole neighborhoods in Belfast, and they certainly wouldn't get away with it if they did.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Interesting that Kofi let Syria and Iran off the hook.

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Maybe because there's more evidence needed outside the US than the Israeli Government's say-so? We may "know" that Iran is behind this, but until you prove it they're not going to condemn anyone publicly. He's a World Leader - the Head of the UN, not some blowhard on Fox News.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

And Tipp, why no denounciation of Lebanon as a racist, apartheid-like regime?

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Because they're not? Beside the distasteful influence of Damascus on Lebanese policy since 2000, there has been NO government in the Middle East that has been more inclusive than Lebanon. They actually have a mandate that X amount of Sunni, Shia, and Druze (Christians) sit in their parliament. This law is what Hezbollah has used to garner themselves seats in Parliament. They were by no means elected Nationally.

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The war that created Hezbolla, created a strong force that helped to get a pretty nasty israelli army out. The Golon Hieghts, buffer zones the shaba farms, we are talking about land grabs that even the UN has said are illegal. Hezbolla as a group can not be just broken up by either side as it is a strong product of long running war. I dare say that Hezbolla will get stronger now that the conflict is spreading.

Its time to sit down and discuss. If both sides actually listened to the UN and actually followed the rulings there would be nothing to fight over. Instead Israel makes more settlments and Hezbolla, the PLO fight the only way they can guerrilla warfare.

Having live in North America and lived aboard I will say that the news is so unbalanced in the states towards the Israelis. Terrorists attack inocent settlers in bold big letters. Never explaining that the settlers are considered occupiers by the other side and the UN.

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Take into account the anti-Israeli, pro-Arab bias of what you're seeing--which in Europe can be explained by the business interests of many of the countries.

Sheba Farms is a bullshit argument, a tiny bit of land that has been ruled Syrian by the UN. Hezbollah claims it as Lebanese as a pretext for attacking Israel, which Syria naturally encourages--completely without legitimacy, if this were in any way about that sliver of land there would be no conflict.
And stop justifying Hezbollah terrorism. This, 'it's the only way they can fight' argument could be used to explain away any atrocity. If Israel decided that the only way it could fight was Hezbollah style (intentionally targetting civilians) I'm sure you'd take your double standard approach and condemn it. You should be consistent and condemn Hezbollah, instead of presenting 'reasons' for their terrorism.
Equally galling is that in the process of helping us understand why Lebanese terrorist acts are acceptable, you claim it's time for talks. I guess it's only time for talks when Hezbollah is being hit; but when rockets are hitting Israeli towns that's just a fair fight.
Or are you being silently critical of the people who started this? I'm guessing not (I know, after being pressed everyone will say Hezbollah is wrong, but somehow that's not nearly as fun as going after Israel for having the audacity to defend itself).

Know this, R - I blame Hezbollah for starting this mess. No doubt. They suck and need to be expunged. The only problem I have (and from what I hear is echoed Internationally) is with the Israeli response.

You keep asking the Lebanese Government to do something about Hezbollah and/or the Syrian Influence. They can't, since the Israelis left them basically defenseless in 2000. The best thing that happened for Israeli Security regarding their Neighbor to the North was the assassination of Rafik Hariri - not because he was an asshole, quite the opposite, but because it exposed to the world the undue influence Syria had on every day politics in Lebanon.

maybe if the US armed the Lebanese Army like they've armed the IDF then Hezbollah might start respecting THEIR government. HAH, like that's gonna happen....

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Well, since Hezbollah is a paramilitary organization with a political arm, I would say for the same reason the IRA does. Yet nobody is leveling whole neighborhoods in Belfast, and they certainly wouldn't get away with it if they did.

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Belfast is quite different, but i have no doubt that England would respond wiht at least as much force if attacked in the same way for so long. And Hezbollah explicitly situates itself where it does in civilian neighborhoods to put something (civilian buildings) between itself and Israel.

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Maybe because there's more evidence needed outside the US than the Israeli Government's say-so? We may "know" that Iran is behind this, but until you prove it they're not going to condemn anyone publicly. He's a World Leader - the Head of the UN, not some blowhard on Fox News.

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So what Lebanon/Hezbollah claims circumstantially is good enough to condemn Israel, but the open 'secret' (based on much more than Israel's say-so, as you implied) of where Hezbollah gets its arms can't be mentioned? What??

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And Tipp, why no denounciation of Lebanon as a racist, apartheid-like regime?
Because they're not? Beside the distasteful influence of Damascus on Lebanese policy since 2000, there has been NO government in the Middle East that has been more inclusive than Lebanon. They actually have a mandate that X amount of Sunni, Shia, and Druze (Christians) sit in their parliament. This law is what Hezbollah has used to garner themselves seats in Parliament. They were by no means elected Nationally.

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When you thought, incorrectly, that Israel had religious/racial restrictions on its voting you called it apartheid, but the Lebanese restrictions (based on religious sect) on representation are a shining example of enlightened democracy? Do you not see the inconsistency?
And to say Lebanon is the most inclusive democracy in the middle east, when it's really not democratic, is far from the truth. Israel remains the only truly democratic government there. I doubt any Arab government would even consider the full guarantees of civil rights for Jews that all Israeli Arabs have.

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Know this, R - I blame Hezbollah for starting this mess. No doubt. They suck and need to be expunged. The only problem I have (and from what I hear is echoed Internationally) is with the Israeli response.

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I didn't doubt you blamed Hezbollah for starting this, I just don't see the 'proportionality' argument as legitimate--as if it would be OK for Israel to act only if more people had been killed.

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You keep asking the Lebanese Government to do something about Hezbollah and/or the Syrian Influence. They can't, since the Israelis left them basically defenseless in 2000. The best thing that happened for Israeli Security regarding their Neighbor to the North was the assassination of Rafik Hariri - not because he was an asshole, quite the opposite, but because it exposed to the world the undue influence Syria had on every day politics in Lebanon.

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It did get Syria out, but Lebanon has done nothing in six years to reduce Hezbollah's military capacity. In fact, they've aided them by making ports, airports, and roads available for their use while condoning their semi-autonomous rule of the south and part of Beirut (and Bekka).

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maybe if the US armed the Lebanese Army like they've armed the IDF then Hezbollah might start respecting THEIR government. HAH, like that's gonna happen....

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There's the little issue of Hezbollah itself being part of the government that would oversee that army...

A couple of yrs ago the Israeli navy seized a ship bound for the PA with 50 tons of weapons, including Katusha rockets. The ship was tracked from Iran. There is good evidence of Irans meddling with Israels enemies.

And had the IRa conducted itself in similar fashion and been stupid enough to create entire areas and defences in which it controlled I am sure the same would have happened.

Personally I think the Israeli response has a two part explanation. First to reduce the threat Hezbollah has gathered in the past 5 yrs. Second, the kidnapping was an escalation, and sadly for us, the Israelis fear that Hamas and Hezbollah have taken a page out of the Iraq insurgency.

We need a pro-American government in Syria AND Iran to obtain peace in the Middle East. Iraq and Afghanistan is a good start.

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Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Belfast is quite different, but i have no doubt that England would respond wiht at least as much force if attacked in the same way for so long.

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And when England responded with violence to "The Troubles" it was roundly condemned, then immortalized in a top10 radio hit that's still on the playlist 25 years later...

like WW1, a failure of societal logic.

From what i know the British military moved in at the start of that period to quell rioting--hardly anything like what Israel had to respond to. I don't know enough about The Troubles to really compare, but i wouldn't call what Israel's doing right now illogical. If it were I doubt 90% of Israelis would support it (compare to 1982 when there was much opposition to the ill-conceived Lebanon invasion).

Anybody know what role George Schultz might play in the administration's middle east strategies?

Im not naive to think that they would stop fighting but... Start following UN guidelines and it might get somewhere.
You cannot have settlements with secure roads ripping through the heart of a state. You cannot take revenge on a whole nation when that nation if it had the means would get rid of Hezbolla. Hezbolla is a creation of the 1982 war started because on the back of truths and alot of propoganda on the part of the hawks at the time.

There is nothing that either side is doing that could in anyway lead to peace. I wouldnt be surprised if this just blows up the middle east, cause violence in this area of the world is nothing new.

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Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

We need a pro-American government in Syria AND Iran to obtain peace in the Middle East. Iraq and Afghanistan is a good start.

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Yep, Iraq and Afghanistan are looking just peachy.

What the United States should do is tell Israel that it has permission to defend its borders in any manner it sees fit.

However, it will loose every US dollar of aid and loans over the next two years which will go to rebuild Lebanon which will inevitably be flattened.

The US has a Marshall Plan to rebuild a fledgling democracy in the Middle East and Israel gets to bust skulls with ramifications.

I am expecting a call from Kofi any minute now.

The thing that I find difficult to get right now is why everyone is so concerned about an area where bacon is so hard to come by.

It makes no sense.

You would think that Bacon would be in abundance, because Israel should be a large exporter of pork products. Unless you want turkey bacon, of which I have no knowledge.

Mrs Roo is a Hindu and makes spaghetti bolognaise with turkey mince rather than beef.

I try to understand but when it comes to pasta, the bird aint the word. The same applies to crispy strips.

I think Turkey Bacon is one of the signs of the Apocalypse. So is Tofutti Ice Cream.

Oy. Tipp just threw down with Tofutti Ice Cream. Evil. Just evil.

I cannot believe a thread of mine has made it 27 pages. Who knew?:eek:
















There that will kill it:fm:

So India arrests the Mumbai bombers (in Kenya).
Spain arrested the Madrid bombers.
Britain arrested the London bombers.

The US arrests no bombers, and invades other countries to create many new bombers. When was 9/11?

Christiane Amanpour explained it all to me on Charlie Rose. She's hot. Super Hot. I am cool, for a few days.

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Originally Posted by Archie

So India arrests the Mumbai bombers (in Kenya).
Spain arrested the Madrid bombers.
Britain arrested the London bombers.

The US arrests no bombers, and invades other countries to create many new bombers. When was 9/11?

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It just makes your brain run out of your ears doesn't it?
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Originally Posted by Archie

So India arrests the Mumbai bombers (in Kenya).
Spain arrested the Madrid bombers.
Britain arrested the London bombers.

The US arrests no bombers, and invades other countries to create many new bombers. When was 9/11?

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Please do more homework before posting BS without doing your reading.

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Originally Posted by TJ.Brk

Please do more homework before posting BS without doing your reading.

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What do you mean? It was a factual statement.