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Well if I had a pair of K108's, I would definitely mount on the rec line. I just did a remount to my M102's back to the rec line after being about 12mm forward of rec. That was the way to go for me. Maybe my reason for liking the back line is that I am a bigfoot in a 28.5 boot. Pretty sure both Bandit and Shorty J have small feet which could explain why they like +1.
You are 100% right about me, but I think Bandit is on the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Pabst
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Ok, this is a dumb question and may be a tune thing that I don’t understand, but in the two days I’ve been on these, I’ve crossed the tips 3-4 times, twice resulting in a spectacular crash. Three times in steep moguls, and once today in moderate angle, moderately smooth snow. For the record, in the past two weeks I’ve also skied my OG Cochise and my V-werks Katanas and haven’t done this. As far as I know, I haven’t crossed tips in years.
Is it the ski, the tune, style, stance??
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Definitely not the skill of the rider.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
I think you’re mounted forward on a flat camber ski that likes to wander anyways. You lean back and widen your stance and there you go. But without watching it who knows.
I got rid of mine because at speed in variable snow I had to spend too much time minding the tips.
295-mm BSL and I’m on the rear line. Couldn’t imagine needing to go forward (for my style), but I also have 200-lbs working for me with this ski. [emoji16]Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
Just spent Friday up at Blackcomb on my 184’s. OMG…I almost forgot how much I enjoy these on a Big mountain with Big terrain. Spent lots of time well north of 50-mph on soft groomers. I love how easy they are to back off the edges, slide the tails around, and shut down speed. Then, jump off trail in the 6-8” of Pow and wind-affected crud and they float and push through everything. With the 3D sidecut, they are like a fat race ski, with just enough give in that tail to feel forgiving in crappy snow.
I think I need a backup pair of 184’s. [emoji6]
Heh, my skill is def in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustonen
But seriously, cant tell if you’re being snarky and saying it’s me (it’s likely me, I just don’t know why), or you’re saying that you had some similar drama with them?
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Also, I am mounted forward, but would 1.5 cm cause that problem? If I don’t click with these I likely won’t risk the value loss in a remount to find out, I think I’ll move on.
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If you can ski the OG Cochise and Vwerks, you’re no slouch. So, I’m going with stance/style or tune. Both the OG Cochise and Vwerks have a much larger, single radius sidecut, which may also be a factor. Also, if you are a skis close together kind of skier, those fat tips and 3D sidecut can work against you.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
I cannot quite put my finger on it, but after spending so much time on my 184 M102/K108 (and perhaps adjusting my technique to suit those skis), I have really fallen out of love with my 185 OG Cochise. Like in a “what did I ever like about these?” kind of way.
Little snark… old TGR habits die hard.
But also, I found them to be twitchy and you had to think about both skis to keep them in line at speed on any snow that wasn’t smooth. For me, this meant thinking about how much rotational force I was applying to each ski, especially when they were flat or in variable conditions.
Forward mount exacerbated this. If your skill/experience level isn’t up to it or you have bad habits, that will be magnified too. I bet they’re great at low speeds on groomers or in 6” of fresh snow. I bet longer sidecut skis you leave the outside ski behind frequently, but with the weird 3d+ tight sidecut you see the opposite with these.
Ah, now were getting somewhere. Leaving the outside ski behind is something that I have had to focus on not doing with other skis in the past, but it seemed like I could overcome it/get past it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustonen
I’m sure I have loads of bad habits engrained at this point but I’ve never really had a ski that I thought much about after a handful of runs on it.
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Likely not the answer you're looking for, but based on your previous ski, I bet you'd be happier on the 184. Tip dive isn't something I've personally experienced on these.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod9301
Yah, ^ this all sounds right; they're a pretty unreal Blackcomb DD for traditional folks like us. I have 50 some days on my pair and have hardly grabbed anything else this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
Sorry you're not getting along with em. As Bandit said above though, none of this ^ is super surprising. They definitely fall into the metal lam charger camp with similar characteristics to that class, the rocker profile and sidecut just make em more accessible IME. Great DD for a place like Blackcomb (mostly open spaces), and while I like em in steeps (I just like steeps), in 2 and 3D, I also generally ski a turn or two ahead and try not to stop in sketchy places, which lines up well with the K108s attributes (min speed but no max kinda ski). And if I'm skiing moguls, I fucked up. Hope you find the unicorn you're looking for! 6'2/195#, on the 191 at plus 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
Not trying to be snarky when I ask if you have a true bar? Edge high could cause this but that can't be diagnosed over the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
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Btw, on my k108, I've been crossing tips too. I'm going to check the tune, did are 3 days from new
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I do not, but I could probably have a shop check? If this were the case and it was a tune problem, wouldn’t it show up on groomers as well? As far as I know, this has only happened off trail, which leads me to believe its my (lack of) technique not clicking with the ski.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorty_J
Edit: looks like Rod has had this happen too?
Powerful traditional skis are particularly sensitive to the tune. A good friend was just complaining about her M102s being “hooky” and demanding, but a basic hand tune (2 degree side, 1 degree base, and light gummy 12” back from the tip and tail) and she’s loving them. I wouldn’t expect Volkls to be railed, but worth checking.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
I got a few days on my new (to me) K108's 184's that I got off another member here. The first few runs I tried them I took them right off and went back to my M102's. The tips were everywhere when trying to get them on edge and go through bumpy stuff on the groomers and in the trees. Thought these weren't going to be my skis.
The group I was staying with in SLC had a set of these same skis and feeling the edges back to back, these were like a razor blade compared to the others that had a bunch of days on them (which the owner was getting along with). A round of de-tuning from the local shop, and they were still quite a bit sharper than the other guys skis, but MUCH improved on the slope. I could actually move these things around and get the tails to release when I needed them to. These things are rippers now.
I had to detune the tips on mine. I was crossing the tips, which i can't remember the last time this happened with all my other skis.
Fixed the problem
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Ha,I guess I should’ve (de)tuned them before deciding they weren’t for me? Glad they are working for you now.Quote:
Originally Posted by GHILL28
Bandit man - where do you have yours mounted. I love my 102s so much thinking about picking these up (184 as well) but would probably want to mount a cm or two forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
I initially mounted my 177 k108s on the more forward line and the tips were diving too much in powder, so i remounted on the back line, recommended, and problem solved
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Ah that's right, they were yours. I think we were dealing via text and I forgot what the TGR handle was.Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag
The binding mounting ended up with true center closer to +1 than on the rec line with the heel plate being moved, so I may think about re-mounting them again at some point if there's adequate space between the hole edges. Not sure yet. The edge tuning was the main thing so they do smear around consistently on steep bumpy stuff between the trees really well now, but then want to be going mach 10 on the open choppy stuff too. Neat skis.
I’m on the rear line for all my recent Volkls, and I’m only in a 295-mm BSL. I like driving the shovels and with that large sweet spot, it feels perfect for 184’s.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD12
On the topic of hooky K108’s, as has been shared, it’s all about detuning. My K108’s are soooo easy to slide the tails around, especially when scrubbing speed above 50-mph and coming to a quick stop. Might be the easiest ski I have to perform this maneuver on.
Also, I’ll admit that the long-ish rocker but minimal splay might give some pause on how aggressive to get with detuning. It was a progression for me, but I feel like detuning really allows the 3D sidecut to shine, especially in heavy, dense snow.
Another Katana in the wild.
6 inches new on top of variable yesterday at Targhee. Leftovers today and tomorrow should be another powder day. For the second season Katana goes along on western road trips.
Attachment 452832
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Just mounted these up for a buddy. Quite envious. Good thing we have the same BSL.
I told him to get the 192 dynastar m-free 108s a few years ago and he went 182 instead and was under-gunned. I reckon these 184s I recommended will do the trick and open his eyes.
Attachment 452870