Climate Change

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

It's going to require a massive decrease in standard of living, or killing about 4 billion people in short order. The generation you and I are both a part of had ample opportunity to address this before it came to that, but that's the point we're at now. We made our bed, now it's time for us and our progeny to lie in it. You're welcome, kids! Our generation proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that avarice trumps all.





I get that you're going for gallows humor, but I would put even odds on him taking that matter into his own hands at some point.

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You're incorrect about several things here. Renewable energy at utility scale is now cheaper to build than carbon-emitting power plants. Furthermore, the US decoupled GDP growth from emissions over a decade ago. Your assertions are grotesque and simply not grounded in facts or supported by economic models. This malthusian nonsense gets dangerously close to advocating genocide and it distracts from implementing real solutions.

We are also not similar in age. I'm going to be around for many more decades.

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The earth is angry today in Oregon; hot, stiff wind.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

It's going to require a massive decrease in standard of living, or killing about 4 billion people in short order. The generation you and I are both a part of had ample opportunity to address this before it came to that, but that's the point we're at now. We made our bed, now it's time for us and our progeny to lie in it. You're welcome, kids! Our generation proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that avarice trumps all.

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In three lines you summed up the way I feel that woulda taken me a page to deliver, and not as well.
Welcome aboard. "avarice Trumps all". I see what you did there...
Sir shred, I assume he's apologizing for our generations inaction. I apologize as well.

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Originally Posted by telefreewasatch

In three lines you summed up the way I feel that woulda taken me a page to deliver, and not as well.
Welcome aboard. "avarice Trumps all". I see what you did there...
Sir shred, I assume he's apologizing for our generations inaction. I apologize as well.

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Thank you, sir.

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Originally Posted by PB

Rushing? .... Doing nothing is far worse than taking a chance on unknown consequences...

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HA!
my dad used to say

"don't just stand there,
do something"

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Originally Posted by Dr. Adirondack

It's going to require a massive decrease in standard of living, or killing about 4 billion people

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Long as its the Russians and Chinese...lets go Biden 2024.

Question: What is the 1st things a Climate Change denier writes?

Answer:

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Not a climate change denier, but .......

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^^^ Now the denial has shifted from "it ain't happening at all or it's not our fault at all" to.. "we're not in a lot of trouble from it yet or for at least another 50+ years" .. "we have time to gradually adapt"... etc...

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

^^^ Now the denial has shifted from "it ain't happening at all or it's not our fault at all" to.. "we're not in a lot of trouble from it yet or for at least another 50+ years" .. "we have time to gradually adapt"... etc...

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Did you know that in the next 100 years 8 billion people will die?

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Originally Posted by mar123

Did you know that in the next 100 years 8 billion people will die?

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Haha.. Yes, 95% of the people alive today will be dead in 100 years. Got any other nuggets of wisdom to share?

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Originally Posted by SumJongGuy

Haha.. Yes, 95% of the people alive today will be dead in 100 years. Got any other nuggets of wisdom to share?

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Cobra Kai never dies!

How do you guys feel about going heli-skiing now? I really want to go back to AK and ski some dream lines, as I feel I have unfinished business, but it's coming to a point where I'm not even sure I have the conscience to do it anymore. Am I the only one feeling it?

No, you're not the only one. I don't do the AK heli ski deal, but I do think about the environmental expense of skiing. We're a bunch of hypocrites on the one hand. But we do what we can to minimize impact like car pooling and being aware of the expense.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

Not a climate change denier, but i think the politicians are rushing,

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That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

As far as firing up the snow guns--by far the biggest environmental cost of skiing is people driving, flying, etc to the hill. A viable future doesn't have skiing, and a whole lot of other stuff people like to do.

Star Trek Transporters FTW!

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Originally Posted by old goat

That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

As far as firing up the snow guns--by far the biggest environmental cost of skiing is people driving, flying, etc to the hill. A viable future doesn't have skiing, and a whole lot of other stuff people like to do.

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Wasn't trying to be funny, but i maintain the politicians are rushing into renewables

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Now you're down right hilarious.

Unless you've got rational alternative to going slow/doing nothing, it would be best if you move on.

The rational reasons, you only have to look at Europe.

They will need gas fired plants, none authorized. They need lng genuinely, none authorized.
They were out are planning to shut down nuclear plants.

The switch to renewables has to happen in an orderly way, we still need carbon based power plants until renewables, coupled with storage are fully available.

And even if you don't like my arguments, it's stupid to say move on.

Sometimes you have to listen to people that might have a different opinion.



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That’s like if your house on fire telling the firefighters to turn their hoses down cause it might drown your roses.

There isn’t enough time if we go full speed, so the only option is to go faster still

Agreed and how the new mini nuke reactors are not being put into every city is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by rod9301

The rational reasons, you only have to look at Europe.

They will need gas fired plants, none authorized. They need lng genuinely, none authorized.
They were out are planning to shut down nuclear plants.

The switch to renewables has to happen in an orderly way, we still need carbon based power plants until renewables, coupled with storage are fully available.

And even if you don't like my arguments, it's stupid to say move on.

Sometimes you have to listen to people that might have a different opinion.



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I think Fareed does a good job in this commentary explaining your position, that we are headed for a major energy crisis and need a better transition strategy.

It's a lot easier to sit here a ways inland way above sea level and far from the equator, with plenty of potable water and not feel so rushed. Meanwhile last week a third of Pakistan was under water..

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Originally Posted by yeahman

I think Fareed does a good job in this commentary explaining your position, that we are headed for a major energy crisis and need a better transition strategy.

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^yup....and strongly agree with rod9301

again incase you missed it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ScJ_FwaZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBpiXcyB7wU

We all want renewables to happen and it has to happen this way^....I agree with how Biden is dealing with the oil and gas industries and it needs to happen, BUT he jumped the gun and rushed it...this shouldn't have happened until ALL our renewables and grids have been built and proven....then its time to phase out oil/gas....now he is simply responsible for an energy crisis and inflation. You can do your own research on how prices were rising before the Ukraine invasion so save the argument.

Its going to take decades before we can get our infrastructure for renewables built, it is absolute priority that in order to achieve this that we have a healthy economy!

awesome vid on electrical power engineering....put things into perspective
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhxo2oXRiio

So when we started CAFE standards for cars why did they allow the SUV and pickup explosion?
Obviously work trucks need big engines. But the soccer moms in big trucks drives me crazy.

Side rant. I need vans for work. Ten months ago a transit was $4k over the $40k asking price. Now they’re selling MSRP. But it’s $44k. For an empty box with no interior. Wtf

I’m pretty sure the Venn diagram for the people saying “we need an energy transition strategy” and “climate change isn’t real”, “climate change is real but not caused by man”, “climate change is cause by man, but we can’t change course” , “what’s Al Gores carbon footprint?” is a circle.

Even a casual reader of the news will understand that certain political groups have been attempting to implement energy and economy transition plans via Congress for several decades now.

Unfortunately the time for a nice, orderly transition away from fossil fuels is/has passed so now it’s going to hurt. Even better is that because we waited we are also going to get to eat all the costs of climate change via weather damage, food insecurity, and population migration.

Our now closed nuclear plant is being converted to a 200 megawatt solar plant. 2 dems voted for it and the one Republican voted against it. Thankfully we live on an island of blue semi sanity inside a sea of red. Sanity won this time.

Tell me who is standing in the way of progress again? This is replaying all over the country. One of our Republican controlled counties on the barren west coast of Iowa voted down a windmill farm because...it needs to go somewhere less scenic...lol.

And yes, the nuclear plant should still be up and running. But it isn't, because it wasn't economical to run without subsidies of some sort, against the backdrop of wind/cheap natural gas, and our government (both parties) hasn't stepped up to the plate.

Final nail in the coffin of the Nuclear plant was, go figure, a climate induced derecho, the size and strength unprecedented. Closed even earlier than the planned early closure.

The right has been radicalized. Pro oil. Anti renewable. Then they cry we are moving too fast, going to wreck the economy...blah, blah, as they work to stop the transition. Self fulfilling prophecy.



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Sure, in a perfect world, in transition we would balance the outgoing old with the incoming new, keeping the energy flow stable and predictable, with all parties contributing for the better of all, and it would have started 40 years ago. Didn't happen then, and we're not much closer now. Human nature has other plans, some more selfish than others, and ultimately it's going to hurt in the short term. The longer we draw it out, the bigger that hurt is going to be. The old (energy) culture will not relinquish its power willingly - if it were up to them many would simply squeeze every last $ out of the oil sources, arguing against any "transition" until after the oil is gone. There's just too many greedy people, including the consumer, unwilling to make the hard choices early to avoid the future much bigger pain.
And I'm pretty confident that the current spate of "mandates" for green energy at a given date, while probably unrealistic in their time frames, will push us the right direction. Heck, it's even possible in a weirdly perverted way, sometime in the future, that the UKR war will be considered a critical event in pushing the world in a better energy direction. Thanks, Putin!
NOT SAYING THE WAR IS A GOOD THING
There definitely are problems with renewables, and ultimately they will probably remain a second tier energy source, but will still be significant in their contribution. Ultimately nuclear fission/fusion seems like the obvious replacement for oil, and yet resistance remains high and will continue to do so. I fear that the only way to increase it's acceptance is to shock the current system, hopefully just enough to change peoples minds but avoid serious damage.

We have already run out of time, and if carbon emissions went to zero tomorrow things would still get worse for decades. It boggles the mind that anyone who is living through the western drought and fires or the flooding in the South or has watched TV or read the news cannot understand how dire things already are.

I think I said this before (maybe a different thread), in global locations with long haul trucking infrastructure, Shell is hedging, planning, and spending for a two-step electrification conversion process: cow manure conversion to “biogas” for long haul trucks (all other highway vehicles are electric); then tech catches up and long haul trucks are fully electric.

Every single renewable energy relies on fossil fuels for it to be created/implemented. Making drilling and fossil fuels harder to get will drive the price of renewables up at the same time.

Fair point; the non-energy related uses of fossil fuels a fundamental part of essentially every infrastructure. The critical difference of course is that those non-energy elements aren't being combusted, never to be used again. In theory, they can be recycled to at least some degree. The need to use dirty fossil fuels to make energy should be kept to an absolute minimum. This still leaves the question of how do we get there from here quickly and with as little pain as possible.

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Originally Posted by PB

Fair point; the non-energy related uses of fossil fuels a fundamental part of essentially every infrastructure. The critical difference of course is that those non-energy elements aren't being combusted, never to be used again. In theory, they can be recycled to at least some degree. The need to use dirty fossil fuels to make energy should be kept to an absolute minimum. This still leaves the question of how do we get there from here quickly and with as little pain as possible.

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If the world can figure out how to create steel, concrete and polymers without the use of fossil fuels then we will be on the right track. Hydrogen is probably the correct direction.

On top of that, lithium mines are absolutely disgusting and are in regions with little to no regulation compared to the USA and Canada.

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Originally Posted by PB

.... squeeze every last $ out of the oil sources ....

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and THAT is exactly what will happen,
sorry Earth

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Originally Posted by SoVT Joey

If the world can figure out how to create steel, concrete and polymers without the use of fossil fuels then we will be on the right track. Hydrogen is probably the correct direction.

On top of that, lithium mines are absolutely disgusting and are in regions with little to no regulation compared to the USA and Canada.

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Curious: how can hydrogen be used in structural elements? I've always been intrigued by fuel cell tech, but am not familiar with hydrogen's application elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by PB

Curious: how can hydrogen be used in structural elements? I've always been intrigued by fuel cell tech, but am not familiar with hydrogen's application elsewhere.

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I meant hydrogen in fuel cells for heavy equipment. Concrete can be made then in a green way. There is a guy that I read about that’s making “hempcrete”. It’s supposedly fairly strong and very green. Ore could be harvested the same for iron and steel. Polymers… we’ll stick up the creek without a paddle. But cellulose and other green fibers are being worked with to substitute in some instances. So maybe that’s the direction for that.

There’s also mass timber construction material.

what do we really know about the sun? what if it farted and is burning 2-5 degrees warmer for the next 100 years?

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Originally Posted by mar123

what do we really know about the sun? what if it farted and is burning 2-5 degrees warmer for the next 100 years?

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Boy, you're a special kind of stupid.

Dr. A, your last post I wholeheartedly supported.
This one I do not.
This thread has been remarkable in that folks are civil yet thinking outside the box some.
I for one am learning a lot from more educated types and have enjoyed the lack of adolescent posts.
A lil respect here, please...
I think you and mar are on the same page actually.