Fu*king Cyclists

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Originally Posted by old goat

It's exactly you're self righteous attitude--because I'm on a bike I can do no wrong, all those cars around me are trying to kill me, I'm a member of a victim class--that is responsible for so much of the rude cyclist behavior we all see. (As far as the latest episode we're talking about--cyclist gets a line of cars backed up behind him but refuses to get off on to the shoulder and let them pass. And you belittle the incident as the drivers just being delayed a few minutes--obviously it was a lot more than that--without considering that if the cyclist were to get off the road he would be delayed for a lot shorter time.)

You seem to have drawn a pretty straight line between people complaining about rude and dangerous behavior on the part of cyclists and those people either condoning the murder of cyclists or being potential murderers themselves. That would make you an asshole in the eyes of an awful lot of people. But then you're in SF, the city that invented rice-a-roni and self righteous indignation, so I kind of understand.

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Wow, that came out of nowhere. Do we know each other?

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Originally Posted by old goat

It's exactly you're self righteous attitude--because I'm on a bike I can do no wrong, all those cars around me are trying to kill me, I'm a member of a victim class--that is responsible for so much of the rude cyclist behavior we all see.

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Weird. I bike to work. I stop at lights and signs, signal turns and lane changes, and generally just want to get to work alive. I've been hit by a bus while in the bike lane, been road raged by people who don't think bikes should ever be in a vehicle lane (you know, to turn left or to get around a car stopped in a bike lane), been doored twice by Uber passengers, and have had countless close calls. But it's definitely my attitude that caused all of these things.

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Originally Posted by old goat

As far as the latest episode we're talking about--cyclist gets a line of cars backed up behind him but refuses to get off on to the shoulder and let them pass. And you belittle the incident as the drivers just being delayed a few minutes--obviously it was a lot more than that--without considering that if the cyclist were to get off the road he would be delayed for a lot shorter time.)

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Think about this a little bigger. If the cyclist gets off the road every time a car is behind him, he won't get anywhere because cars go faster than bikes. So the fallback is the cyclist shouldn't ride on that road, but by extension there's nowhere a cyclist could ride, other than a bike lane. You may think that's right, but it doesn't work out in the country, nor does it really work up in Truckee by you (where it actually seems like people are less dickish, present company excepted).

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Originally Posted by old goat

You seem to have drawn a pretty straight line between people complaining about rude and dangerous behavior on the part of cyclists and those people either condoning the murder of cyclists or being potential murderers themselves.

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The straight line was drawn by our friend Spook, who said (and I paraphrase) "I was stuck behind this guy on a road I know is lousy with bikes, what an asshole...also this other person was killed by someone while biking."

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Originally Posted by old goat

That would make you an asshole in the eyes of an awful lot of people. But then you're in SF, the city that invented rice-a-roni and self righteous indignation, so I kind of understand

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What do you have against Rice-a-Roni?

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Originally Posted by FormerKnuckleDragger

I stop at lights and signs.

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As a bicyclist, I find this hard to believe. Unless you mean you slow for signs and lights most of the time and stop when appropriate.

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Originally Posted by dunfree

As a bicyclist, I find this hard to believe. Unless you mean you slow for signs and lights most of the time and stop when appropriate.

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You may not believe it, but I am (in this situation and in many others, I'm sure), THAT guy.

there is no straight line in any argument or relative importance merely because i added a reference to a fatality at the end without comment. seriously. you're making nothing out of nothing for no reason.

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Originally Posted by wyeaster

there is no straight line in any argument or relative importance merely because i added a reference to a fatality at the end without comment. seriously. you're making nothing out of nothing for no reason.

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This thread title is "Fucking Cyclists" and you post about a cyclist that made you upset and a cyclist that died. What am I missing? What was the point about including the second part?

i thought i already posted it but there is no expectation that the cyclist ride on the shoulder or pull over as far as i am aware. single file in the lane within a foot or two of the line and the car needs to wait on oncoming traffic to pass safely. there is almost no shoulder on this road and others in the area and it is curvy with intermittent short straightaways. this guy was riding literally in the middle of the lane and was looking back with some regularity very casually. cyclists ride it at 30mph plus all the time because it's downhill. i don't know if he had an issue with the car behind him or what. it was extreme but not unheard of and common to lesser degrees.

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Originally Posted by wyeaster

i thought i already posted it but there is no expectation that the cyclist ride on the shoulder or pull over as far as i am aware. single file in the lane within a foot or two of the line and the car needs to wait on oncoming traffic to pass safely. there is almost no shoulder on this road and others in the area and it is curvy with intermittent short straightaways. this guy was riding literally in the middle of the lane and was looking back with some regularity very casually. cyclists ride it at 30mph plus all the time because it's downhill. i don't know if he had an issue with the car behind him or what. it was extreme but not unheard of and common to lesser degrees.

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While this is not at all the point of what I was asking (why include reference to the cyclist death?), I think it speaks to a broader issue. There's a serious mismatch of understanding and expectations, and that leads to contempt. On a fast, windy downhill, riding 1-2 feet from the fog line isn't safe for a cyclist. I haven't ridden a true road ride since years ago (I stopped when my kids were born), but I would take the lane on fast winding downhills because (1) I'd often need to vary my position in the lane through turns; and (2) I'd want to discourage close passes in the event I had to make a sudden maneuver to miss a sewer grate, pothole, tree branch, or other road debris. It may seem obnoxious to drivers, but it's the safest thing to do. You'd rather be delayed a few minutes than run over the guy if he eats it while riding the fog line, right?

I've got no insight as to whether this particular road is appropriate for bikes. From the sound of things, it's popular, which is a signal that it works for a majority of people, both biking and driving. But as to what you observed, what feels like a safe following distance to a driver can feel way too fucking close to the cyclist.

i lived on this section of road for 13 years, cycling and driving. i am familiar with common practice on the road. i posted about the accident because i felt like it. i posted this clarification for whomever suggested that he should have pulled over, not for you.

moving right along

the downhill of cornell to lovejoy is fast, steep in sections, and it can be dangerous...oh, and it's got a tunnel that's poorly lit that's a pretty good lottery of destruction if the roadway isn't clean.
i've gone 40ish down that hill in dry weather on my bike; i'm sure others have done it faster.
there aren't that many intersections but there aren't that many straightaways either
once it gets into the residential part of NW portland, there's parking on both sides and speed bumps to get traffic slowed down by the time they hit the stop sign at 25th

Strava heat map here
Looks to be popular still
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...e3151f80ac.jpg

Generalizations - the boon and bane of humankind.
It all goes back to those few simple words: don't be an asshole.

(not intended for anybody in particular, just rerererereiterating the mantra mentioned several times earlier in the thread.)

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Generalizations - the boon and bane of humankind.

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Yeah, but they save time.

Pisses me off getting passed closely by another cyclist without warning. Especially while I'm trying to pass someone. I use a bell (everyone in Holland has a bell) but if that's too dorky for you, say something. "On your left" is popular, but people have a tendency to go left when someone behind them says "left". Maybe "passing" would be better, since no one would be dumb enough to pass another bike on the right, would they?
And what is it about Sac State students. 90% of the runners and walkers on the American River bike trail know to run or walk facing bike traffic. Except the students crossing the bike/pedestrian bridge over the river and on the levee path near the school, who invariably walk on the right. I guess that stupidity explains why they didn't get into UC.

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Originally Posted by old goat

Pisses me off getting passed closely by another cyclist without warning. Especially while I'm trying to pass someone. I use a bell (everyone in Holland has a bell) but if that's too dorky for you, say something. "On your left" is popular, but people have a tendency to go left when someone behind them says "left". Maybe "passing" would be better, since no one would be dumb enough to pass another bike on the right, would they?
And what is it about Sac State students. 90% of the runners and walkers on the American River bike trail know to run or walk facing bike traffic. Except the students crossing the bike/pedestrian bridge over the river and on the levee path near the school, who invariably walk on the right. I guess that stupidity explains why they didn't get into UC.

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"I hate when people pass without warning"

"When I warn people of a left pass, they move left."

I mean...sometimes the problem and the solution are the same thing.

My brother-in-law got hit today on his ride into work. Don't know what happened or how he is yet though, my sister got a call from the emergency room this morning and rushed over.

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Originally Posted by johnnyg82

My brother-in-law got hit today on his ride into work. Don't know what happened or how he is yet though, my sister got a call from the emergency room this morning and rushed over.

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Vibes. I've seen more car-bike collisions in the past two weeks than I've seen in the last six months. Low light commute times are no fun.

So it seems like he's ok other than bumps, bruises, a scrape and a minor concussion. This year where we are has been bad for cyclist/car incidents, including at least 2 fatalities.

wow, glad it wasn't worse

I'm a bit freaked out right now because I go through the same intersection he was hit at twice a day everyday on my ride to work.

...Budda bump bump bump,
Another one rides the bus!...

Attachment 192977
that's in the middle of the block btw

Did the cyclist just make a left turn? Maybe the pedestrians were crossing against the light and he moved to give them space? Cyclists aren't obligate to be in a bike lane just because it exists though. I'm not sure what this photo "proves"... that someone might have inconvenienced a superior human in a car for a moment, maybe?

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Originally Posted by ml242

Did the cyclist just make a left turn? Maybe the pedestrians were crossing against the light and he moved to give them space? Cyclists aren't obligate to be in a bike lane just because it exists though. I'm not sure what this photo "proves"... that someone might have inconvenienced a superior human in a car for a moment, maybe?

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It doesn't prove anything. Just shows some pedestrians and a cyclist being idiots (they're HS students so big surprise there). Also it's kind of a Rorschach test to identify entitled bike douches. Works every time. And yes, you do have to ride in the bike lane when one is available and as far to the right as practical and safe when there isn't. And riding down the yellow line of a road is illegal (and stupid) whether you do it on a bike, in a car, kayak, hot air balloon, whatever. And no he didn't just make a left turn. It's the middle of the block, like I said. But I guess you're going to see what you want to see. And project your own sense of entitlement on to car drivers.

Windy as fuck here today. Reminds me of one time several years ago where i was stuck behind a Peloton of weekend warriors out where Iceman lives. Gust of wind hits one dude, he slams into the guy on his left, and most of the group ends up on the ground. Can't say I didn't laugh ruefully.

Old goat, you sound like one of those guys that thinks anyone using the road in any fashion other than yourself is an asshole.

The bike lane law does not exist where I ride. I'm still managing four legs of Cory riding a day, but I'll throw an extra couple of lights on tomorrow so I'm extra visible to people like you.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by ml242

Old goat, you sound like one of those guys that thinks anyone using the road in any fashion other than yourself is an asshole.

The bike lane law does not exist where I ride. I'm still managing four legs of Cory riding a day, but I'll throw an extra couple of lights on tomorrow so I'm extra visible to people like you.

Cheers

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How come every time one of you self righteous bike zealots post you prove the point the rest of us are trying to make? Look, I ride, and when people ride bikes in a way that flaunts the rights of others--whether those others are cars, other bikes, or walkers, they make the road a little more dangerous for me. Now I have no idea how you ride--maybe you ride in a legal, courteous way and have all this anger because of your encounters with cars driving badly. If that's the case maybe the riding is doing you more harm than good. Or maybe you should open your eyes and your mind and notice that the vast majority of drivers go out of their way to give you room, yield to you at stop signs regardless of who has the ROW, and to not hurt you. And where do you live that doesn't require bikes to use the bike lane when one is provided?

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Originally Posted by ml242

you sound like one of those guys

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Originally Posted by ml242

people like you

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Originally Posted by old goat

you self righteous zealots

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Originally Posted by old goat

the rest of us

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you two might be reasonable and caring, but no one hears the rest of it

It just looks to me like the pedestrians jaywalked mid block, hipster fixie kid had to swerve out towards the yellow because he's fixed-bro. Traffic is backed up because they slowed for the peds. You can even see the fixie kid giving the stink eye to the peds.
I'd bet dollars that the fixie rider went back to the bike lane right after this.

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Originally Posted by joetron

It just looks to me like the pedestrians jaywalked mid block, hipster fixie kid had to swerve out towards the yellow because he's fixed-bro. Traffic is backed up because they slowed for the peds. You can even see the fixie kid giving the stink eye to the peds.
I'd bet dollars that the fixie rider went back to the bike lane right after this.

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I'm not sure what it shows other than the general level of idiocy one encounters on a daily basis on American roads, with everyone managing to survive the great majority of the time. Shoulda posted it in the Darwin Awards thread so no one would take offense.

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Originally Posted by acinpdx

you two might be reasonable and caring, but no one hears the rest of it

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Yes. 35 pages distilled down to 4 quotes.

I see this thread going 65+ easy.

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Originally Posted by old goat

I'm not sure what it shows other than the general level of idiocy one encounters on a daily basis on American roads, with everyone managing to survive the great majority of the time. Shoulda posted it in the Darwin Awards thread so no one would take offense.

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That is maybe a 1 out of 10 on the level of idiocy I've seen in third world countries. Not even remotely close to Darwin Awards, people survive basic shit like this, but 10x every .5 seconds around the world.

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Originally Posted by old goat

I'm not sure what it shows other than the general level of idiocy one encounters on a daily basis on American roads, with everyone managing to survive the great majority of the time. Shoulda posted it in the Darwin Awards thread so no one would take offense.

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Sure, dumb shit happens on all roads, all day, every day. But automatically taking the cars/drivers-are-victims angle, constantly inconvenienced by the hegemony of entitled pedestrians and cyclists is laughable.
I mean, just the effort to whip out your phone and take this picture, apparently without digesting exactly what was happening strikes me as funny. "Just wait till the boys back at TGR see this..."

We have far greater things to worry about these days, don't we?

Gonna get a little Poly-Ass here, spritz some gas on the fire and say it's like the alt-right of transportation.

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Originally Posted by joetron

Sure, dumb shit happens on all roads, all day, every day. But automatically taking the cyclists-are-victims angle, constantly inconvenienced by the hegemony of entitled cars and trucks is laughable. .

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FIFY.
And remember: just don't be an asshole.

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Originally Posted by old goat

And where do you live that doesn't require bikes to use the bike lane when one is provided?

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That doesn't mean you have to stay in it 100% of the time. If the bikes are avoiding pedestrians or passing slower-moving cyclists, it's completely legal. Something that drivers don't understand, and try to "correct" with their vehicles all the damn time.

Attachment 193123

California Vehicle Code Section 21208.

(a) Whenever a bicycle lane has been established on a
roadway pursuant to Section 21207, any person operating a bicycle
upon the roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic
moving in the same direction at that time shall ride within the
bicycle lane, except that the person may move out of the lane under
any of the following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle, vehicle, or
pedestrian within the lane or about to enter the lane if the
overtaking and passing cannot be done safely within the lane.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a
private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to leave the bicycle lane to avoid
debris or other hazardous conditions.
(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
(b) No person operating a bicycle shall leave a bicycle lane until
the movement can be made with reasonable safety and then only after
giving an appropriate signal in the manner provided in Chapter 6
(commencing with Section 22100) in the event that any vehicle may be
affected by the movement.

If he watched the video he also would have caught a Transportation Alternatives lawyer answering his exact question on Brian Lehrer's show on WNYC.

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Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

FIFY.
And remember: just don't be an asshole.

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My taking-a-picture comment was like a Buster conjuring spell.

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Originally Posted by joetron

My taking-a-picture comment was like a Buster conjuring spell.

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No, the tired, rehashed, rererereiterated one sided stiltificationalizing of the issue did.

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Originally Posted by ml242

Did the cyclist just make a left turn? Maybe the pedestrians were crossing against the light and he moved to give them space? Cyclists aren't obligate to be in a bike lane just because it exists though. I'm not sure what this photo "proves"... that someone might have inconvenienced a superior human in a car for a moment, maybe?

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That's some dedication.

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Originally Posted by FormerKnuckleDragger

Something that drivers don't understand, and try to "correct" with their vehicles all the damn time.

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I presume that's your pic? Have fun correcting the drivers with your bike in their lane. And that's in California, that seems even sketchier. As a defensive (sometimes aggressive) bike commuter I make miscalculations often, shit happens, but it makes sense to avoid the situation from that pic at all costs. I hope you are not saying you did it because you have the right to do it??? Then again it's your life and your choice.

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Originally Posted by muted

I presume that's your pic? Have fun correcting the drivers with your bike in their lane. And that's in California, that seems even sketchier. As a defensive (sometimes aggressive) bike commuter I make miscalculations often, shit happens, but it makes sense to avoid the situation from that pic at all costs. I hope you are not saying you did it because you have the right to do it??? Then again it's your life and your choice.

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Where did I say I corrected the driver? I made a safe and signaled entrance into the vehicle lane to pass a slower cyclist. Three seconds later this dude decides he's going to pass six inches off my handlebars, when he had the entire other lane to make the pass in. The guy had nowhere to go with a car in front of him, and I was riding at the speed limit.

If by "miscalculations" you mean not anticipating that this jackass would break laws to show his brotherhood with Old Goat, then sure.