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If the Lebanese govt has no control of people firing rockets from within its borders, they are already a failed state infultrated by terrorists. Israel has every right to defend itself when time has proven Lebanon isnt going to do anything about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryMoon
Its another sick example of Islamic extremists using their own people as pawns to draw in Western intervention. The only way for a postive outcome is let Lebanon and Israel settle this thing amongst themselves.
The IDF couldn't defeat Hezbollah over an 18 year period, how should a toothless Lebanese government do the trick?Quote:
Originally Posted by powder11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Gotz
The IDF never tried to defeat Hezbollah, they tried to deter and/or contain them. They never acted like they were at war. They aren't acting like they are at war even now. Wars aren't won from the air, they are won on the ground with large numbers of troops. Until Israel deploys it's ground forces in large numbers, Hezbollah will remain.
i dunno...seems the islamists extremists are seeking to draw in the larger muslim world...and i don't see how Israel and Lebanon's conflict can be taken out of the larger geographical and historical context (which of course has to include the fact that the US is presiding over a disastrous+worsening occupation of nighboring Iraq)...but in any case, it seems there are plenty of extremists here in the US who are just welcoming for such a fight (and not just the rapture freaks).Quote:
Originally Posted by powder11
Its another sick example of Islamic extremists using their own people as pawns to draw in Western intervention. The only way for a postive outcome is let Lebanon and Israel settle this thing amongst themselves.
here's a (pretty frightening/depressing) piece on recent rumblings from the kook wing of the punditocracy:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0717-28.htm
Published on Monday, July 17, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Is It Time For A Third World War?
by Danny Schechter
There are screws loose in high places.
Elements of the intelligence "community" which have done such a fine job in Iraq, and their Israeli counterparts, along with the cadre of paid and unpaid cheerleaders in the TV punditocracy, seem to have decided that what the world needs now is another world war.
And they are not shy about saying so.
First, last week, David Twersky, the Tel Aviv correspondent for the New York Sun, a mouthpiece for the Israeli hardliners, compared the kidnapping of a corporal in Gaza to the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo, the incident that triggered World War 1.
The parallel was planted.
Then, just yesterday Sunday June 16, New Gingrich, former House Speaker and still a darling of the GOP right, stated as a matter of fact on Meet that Press that a new war is already underway in the Middle East. It is, he insists, already a world war. "THIS IS, IN FACT, WORLD WAR 3," he said for emphasis, with no regrets and an apparent longing to "bring it on."
Columnist Dave Postman elaborated on his message in his Seattle Times blog:
"Former U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich says America is in World War III and President Bush should say so. In an interview in Bellevue this morning Gingrich said Bush should call a joint session of Congress the first week of September and talk about global military conflicts in much starker terms than have been heard from the president.
"We need to have the militancy that says 'We're not going to lose a city,'" Gingrich said. He talks about the need to recognize World War III as important for military strategy and political strategy.
"Gingrich said he is "very worried" about Republicans facing fall elections and says the party must have the "nerve" to nationalize the elections and make the 2006 campaigns about a liberal Democratic agenda rather than about President Bush's record."
Mmmm, a world war to save the Bush Administration? How convenient.
But there is more. The always aggressive and often obnoxious Prince of Darkness, Richard Perle, a leading booster of war on Iraq, is now lobbying the Administration to finish off the "axis of evil." In print pieces and TV appearances, he is calling for a wider war now.
Hold on. Also on Meet The Press, Martin Fletcher, the NBC veteran Israel correspondent revealed that the Israeli war plan that is now being carried out is not simply a response to current risks or attacks, and that it has been FIVE years in the making. It was a plan just looking for a pretext.
"I think they will never say that publicly," he added, explaining that this war plan that was not made by this current Israeli government but earlier by his Kadima Party mate Ariel Sharon & his generals. Fletcher says Tel Aviv calls it a "work plan." He says it is being implemented "step by step."
He added, "It will go on until someone steps in and stops them."
The United States is not currently that "someone" - not now. President Bush is backing Israel - although with an unheard PR appeal asking that they be gentler in their attacks. He, like, Israel, is blaming Hezbollah which insists it is acting defensively and reactively, not offensively.
Retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Sam Gardiner, who appears in my film WMD (Weapons of Mass Deception) has been running war games vis-à-vis Iran. He wrote to me on the weekend after talking to Pentagon insiders. His conclusion: "It would be hard to overestimate the danger of a major war," he says. They say the Israeli soldiers they captured were fighting illegally in Lebanon.
He says be believes the US and Israel are coordinating their strategies. While he believes that Iran is orchestrating Hamas and Hezbollah through Syria, he also says: "That does not mean that Israel is not taking advantage of the events. They have decided on regime change in Gaza and on punishing Hezbollah while establishing a buffer zone to prevent rocket attacks. As closely as the US and Israel have been coordinating, one has to assume coordination."
Former Israeli independence fighter and now peace activist Uri Avnery goes further contending: "As in 1982, the present operation, too, was planned and is being carried out in full coordination with the US. As then, there is no doubt that it is coordinated with a part of the Lebanese elite."
And who wants this war? The Toronto Star's Linda McQuaig challenges the dominant view in DC that it is only the Iranians.
"Is it really Iran that is pushing for war? Think about it. Why would Iran want to provoke a war with Israel and the U.S. - both heavily armed nuclear powers - when it has no nuclear weapons itself?"
Summer is often called the silly season. While the Bush Administration is losing one war in Iraq, and another with public opinion here at home, it seems to be opting for more conflicts as its backers bang the drum for a new world war.
Years ago, Che Guevara called for "I, 2, 3" Vietnams. The Busheviks today may be moving toward '1, 2, 3' world wars.
Sound crazy? In our Orwellian political climate, a new generation of Dr Strangelove's are in command. Only this time, they don't act like loonies but have mastered the art of the TV interview and can, with selective facts and ideology packaged as information, make insanity sound oh so sane.
They have convinced themselves, and now want to convince us, to join a new hegemonic adventure to expand their failed "GWOT," (Global War on Terror), whatever the costs.
And where is the media in all this, to rein them in, to connect the dots, to offer the missing context and background, to make vital distinctions between the aggressor and those agressed upon, and to stand up for international law, human rights, and sanity? NBC is giving the Gingrichs and Pearls of the world a platform to advocate more killing with no one to challenge them effectively.
We need more critics like Cenk Uygur who challenges William Kristol on Huffington Post in these terms:
"Bill Kristol has never seen a war he didn't like. No, that's too soft. A war he didn't love and lust after. Here's a wolf in sheep's clothing pretending to be serious, sober minded analyst on television when in reality he is trying to get us sucked into horrific wars that other people will die fighting."
Why didn't Tim Russert have the guts to say something similar to Newt Gingrich?
Has mainstream media devolved so far that a world war is now considered a legitimate subject to advocate? Doesn't this new "mission" add up to more madness?
Has it come to this? Is the summer heat corroding our senses? Is global warming melting our brains?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Dissector Danny Schechter is “blogger in chief” at MediaChannel.org and author of “The Death of the Media and the Fight to Save Democracy”. Email to: dissector@mediachannel.org
Are they? I'm pretty sure that Hezbollah rockets don't have the range to reach Israel from the north of the Lebanon. I know CNN repeated an Israeli claim that rockets were being launched from the north of the country (near the airport), but I'm also pretty sure that Hezbollah doesn't have rockets with that sort of range. If they did, they would be launching them from the south of the country to hit targets deeper in Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by skideeppow
Claims that Lebanon should have cleaned house since 2000 are nice in a "perfect world" sort of way; but considering the Syrians were only thrown out last year that's a pretty tall order for a pretty short time period.
And just to wrangle up a loose thread from a page or two back...
Dex sez: Zionism = supporting the right of Israel to exist
Fine, then I'm a Zionist. But considering that the list of countries which I believe do not have the right to exist is pretty damn short, that's not saying much. However, being a zionist and all, I'm still going to criticize the actions of Israel and any other country whenever I feel like it.
A Brief Recap of the Hezbollah/Lebanon relationship:
The Players:
Lebanon- a no military (or big Brother like the US) to speak of havin' country with what could laughingly be called an army,
vs.
Hezbollah - funded by Syria, Iran, and formerly Iraq and armed to the gills, with easy access to more arms since the territory they hold is the Beqaa Valley - just west of Damascus....
Lebanon: OK, the Israelis pulled out. Thanks for being the only ones who would fight for our liberty, since Israel blatantly ignored all UN Sanctions that weren't vetoed by their US sponsors first. Now that they're gone will you lay down your arms and disband please?
Hezbollah: No
Lebanon: well, you have more military might than we do, and certainly more hardware, so we can't force you to do anything. Also, the puppet government installed by Syria won't let us even round up your most blatant killers without one of our ministers getting executed mafia-style, so please, just do the right thing and disband?
Hezbollah: We said no, biatch. Now since we control 1/10 of the country anyway we want to become a political party and get a seat or three in parliament. We're also going to supplant the Red Crescent as the primary emergency service provider in your country to generate the warm fuzzies with those who are otherwise uncomfortable with us, but nevertheless do not have the power to get rid of us anyway. Oh, why don't you come over here and swallow our dicks while you're at it?
Lebanon: We'll get the International Community to help us like they did in Rwanda.... shit. Fine - lemme get my knee pads.
You misread what I wrote, why are they coming from the NOrth (Lebanon) and the South (Gaza), not NOrthern Lebanon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
I am a conspiracy theorist.
If you were wondering what's up, he's made it to Cyprus, and is working on getting some friends out.
Well thats all right.Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyntrayc
Cool - reports are that a Cruise Ship was hired by the State Dept. to come get all US Nationals out and take them to Cyprus.
Also, this just in: The drinking game known as "Beirut" will henceforth be played with Bowling Balls.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/a...?enewsid=49165
why is US policy in relation to an almost identical situation so different to it's attitude to Israel?
"Turkey should not act alone" yet Israel has "right to self defence"
Let's see. Turkey told us to pound sand when we asked to use their country to invade Iraq from the west. The Kurds have been about our only reliable ally in Iraq. I'm not saying they are saints, they're not. However, we have had better relations with them, on the whole, than any other sect in Iraq.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
If Israel shared a border with Mexico, I bet they wouldn't be taking those fences down.Quote:
Originally Posted by PNWbrit
good news indeed, though I just read that US citizens will have to sign a contract to pay for their rescue before they can board any rescue craft...and are unsure what will happen to them when they reach cyprus...we pay taxes to blow shit up at great expense, but the national budget can't support getting our people home safely??? (well, the men & women of the military have been billed for trips home after getting maimed in battle, so no surprise, i guess) :confused:Quote:
Originally posted by Tippster
Cool - reports are that a Cruise Ship was hired by the State Dept. to come get all US Nationals out and take them to Cyprus.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0718-09.htm
Published on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 by the Los Angeles Times
U.S. Rescue Bogs Down in Lebanon
by Megan K. Stack
BEIRUT — Thousands of Americans whose vacations and business trips to Lebanon have degenerated with sickening speed into stints in a battle zone remained stranded here under Israeli bombardment Monday, their frustration and anger mounting because the U.S. government hasn't gotten them out faster.
http://www.commondreams.org/headline...es/0718-03.jpg
American citizens line to up to get fitted with protective gear before they board a U.S. Marines helicopter which will evacuate them to Cyprus from the grounds of the U.S. Embassy in Aukar at the northern edge of the capital Beirut in Lebanon Tuesday, July 18, 2006. The U.S. ambassador said 320 Americans would be evacuated from Lebanon to Cyprus by the end of Tuesday and that 1,000 more would leave the following day, defending the process in the face of Americans' complaints that it took too long to start moving them out. (AP Photo/Kevork Djansezian)
Waiting around Beirut with bags packed and fingers crossed, U.S. citizens derided the embassy for busy phone lines, a lack of information and gnawing uncertainty over when and whether they will get out. Hundreds were expected to be shipped to Cyprus today, but how long the full evacuation will take remains uncertain.
"I had heard it might take a week, two weeks. You hear so many things," said Pamela Pattie, a 65-year-old professor. "Why in the world aren't we getting it together?"
The frustration has been intensified by news that other countries have already pulled many of their citizens out of Lebanon, efficiently and free of cost. A ferry chartered by the French government carried about 800 of its citizens and several dozen Americans to Cyprus on Monday. The U.S. military evacuated about 60 Americans by helicopter Sunday and Monday.
Other nations have packed people into rented tour buses and driven them over the mountains to Syria. The U.S. State Department has warned Americans against traveling to Syria.
The main U.S. evacuation plan involves a Pentagon-contracted cruise ship, the Orient Queen, due to arrive in Lebanon today to ferry people to Cyprus. The ship can carry about 750 passengers for the five-hour trip. Defense Department officials said other private ships were likely to be hired as well.
Americans have been told to wait for a telephone call that could come in hours — or days. They've also been told they can't board a ship unless they've signed a contract agreeing to repay the U.S. government for the price of their evacuation.
The rules have angered Americans who are already fatigued and nervous after days of explosions. "I'm freaked out that our government is treating us this way," snapped a Rutgers University student who had been studying Arabic at the American University of Beirut. She declined to give her name for fear she would be taken off the passenger list in retribution for criticizing the evacuation effort.
"Are we a Third World country or what?" she said.
Female students from the American University of Beirut, who had been huddled on the ground floor of their dormitory in case of missile strikes, said they were instructed to take a blanket and a three-day supply of food to Cyprus. They were panicked at the notion of sleeping on the street in a strange country.
Officials estimate that 25,000 Americans have poured into Lebanon this summer. They include tourists, business travelers and students. There are Lebanese who fled the torments of the civil war decades ago and had finally dared take their families back for a visit. There are Lebanese Americans and American Jews, young and old, chasing down lost memories or looking for adventure in this sun-dappled country of pine-studded mountains and pristine beaches.
Now they are all stuck in place, trembling when the bombs shake the ground, sweating because of the broken air conditioners, listening to the roar of Israeli jets — and waiting to be rescued.
Among the stranded is a 9-year old boy, Noureddine Issa, who received a liver transplant at UCLA Medical Center as an infant. His family, which lives in Los Angeles, was visiting relatives in Beirut when the fighting broke out.
Surgeons at UCLA have been urgently trying to get Noureddine out of the country, fearing he is running out of critical medications.
The U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in the Middle East and Central Asia, sent a 17-person assessment team to the American Embassy on Sunday to prepare for the evacuation, which is being run by a task force based in Cyprus.
The Pentagon is also sending a Navy destroyer, the Gonzalez, to protect the ferry. Defense officials said sailors and aircraft on the Iwo Jima, a helicopter carrier that had been participating in exercises with the Jordanian military, could also be called in to help.
Juliet Wurr, an embassy spokeswoman, said the United States had done its best to help its citizens escape danger. Humanitarian cases — including children separated from their parents — have already been flown to safety on helicopters, she said.
She also pointed out that U.S. citizens in Lebanon had ignored the State Department warning against traveling there.
"I wish I could snap my fingers and put an aircraft carrier right outside the Israeli buffer zone," Wurr said. "But it doesn't work like that."
But Americans who have been looking to the embassy for advice describe long and futile quests for information.
Stan McKnight, a Los Angeles education consultant, arrived in the Lebanese capital on Wednesday for a business trip, his son at his side. Woozy with jet lag, the two headed directly to a seaside hotel and fell asleep. They didn't hear the blasts, or realize that Israel had bombed the airport just hours after they touched down. As the two men lay dreaming last week, a battle between Hezbollah and Israel was escalating outside.
They awoke to find themselves trapped.
They tried to call for guidance, but the phone lines at the embassy have been jammed for days. And registering with the embassy online was a futile exercise, McKnight discovered. He said Monday that he waited several days after registering his information, heard nothing and finally rented a car to make the trek to the heavily fortified building.
When he arrived, embassy workers explained that neither faxes nor online communications were getting through. So McKnight registered the old-fashioned way: with pencil and paper.
"We're getting zero information on this, just little bits and pieces," he said.
Linda Sayed, a 26-year-old graduate student from New York, has spent recent days making phone calls, with no result. Along with her parents and siblings, Sayed was vacationing in Lebanon.
Before the fighting erupted, her parents and 15-year-old brother traveled south to visit family in her father's ancestral village, Bint Jbeil, on the border with Israel.
Since the attacks began, the family has been sleeping in a bomb shelter, placing frightened calls to Sayed and her sister in Beirut. When the bombs smashed the cellphone towers, the family lost communication.
In Beirut, Sayed has been sitting helplessly in front of a television set, staring at footage of the bomb-scarred village.
She called the United Nations, then UNICEF, then the Red Cross. All the offices told her the same thing: It's impossible to reach her family now, because the bombing on the southern roads has been too heavy. Sayed called the embassy too but couldn't get through. Hundreds of Americans remain trapped in the south, embassy officials estimated.
"I don't care how much it costs," Sayed said. "My 15-year-old brother is there, and he's terrified. He's never experienced a war — we were all born back in the U.S."
Sayed and her sister have registered to leave as soon as the embassy can arrange their escape. The two young women might have to head back to America without knowing when they will see the rest of their family again.
Times staff writer Peter Spiegel in Washington contributed to this report.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckethead
Bucket, this is what your post should have looked like.
Why don't you try posting your own thoughts and just link to other peoples thoughts since they aren't here to respond to any discussion.
The cost is being waved.Quote:
Originally Posted by buckethead
Thats too bad, Nancy Pelosi was making a great effort in comparing that to Katrina. WTF?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckerman
BTW, there is some weird shit going on here. Everyone seems to have a dog in this race. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
Side question: Are there any Israeli Maggots..? Seems I remember one or two -
...fair enough...the pieces tend to look much shorter on the original...Quote:
Originally posted by MeatPuppet
Bucket, this is what your post should have looked like.
Why don't you try posting your own thoughts and just link to other peoples thoughts since they aren't here to respond to any discussion.
i'll be the first to admit that the number of long pastes in the circumcision thread (only to get pasted again in replies) made the thing pretty long and unwieldy (no pun intended);)
Another vote for circumcision!Quote:
Originally Posted by buckethead
;)
One of my closet climbing/mountaineering buds is Russian by birth and an Israeli citizen living here in the US for a bit. His family is closer to Tel Aviv and says they are really not too worried. We've had several talks over beers about it in recent days. He was originally very adamant about support of a major offensive but after seeing how much destruction has been going on, he's backed away from that stance. He says no matter how right or wrong Israel is for going against Hezbollah, such massive destruction of a sovereign state with very little control of Hezbollah is not going to sit well with many Muslims around the world. I share the same sentiment. He said his father was for it like most of Israelis, but not his mother. She told him that IDF has bombed all sorts of factories (paper mill, pharmaceutical, porcelin/dishware plants), including one of the biggest Lebanese dairy farms. WTF??? I even just saw on the news they bombed Lebanese army posts in the North, killing 20 soldiers. Why the fuck are they targeting the Lebanese? Do they never want peace?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTV
From what people are saying on the ground in Beirut, it seems Israel is really trying to bring Lebanon back to "failed state" status, which in my opinion is an act of terrorism. The American media is a joke. Tonight they were actually cutting to commercials early on MSNBC programs like Scarborough because some guests, including Pat Buchanan, were critical of Israel's disproportionate response against the civilian infrastructure.
Who the fuck are American politicians to criticize disproportionate use of force?
They just let W level Iraq, for chrissakes.
Oh, the hypocrisy of it all......
absolutely...the dominant narrative of the American corporate/mainstream media is that Israel is merely passive victim to the terrorist enemies around it...and of course any political critique of Israel's actions can be countered by calls of anti-semitism...so even Jewish critics of Israeli foreign policy are called self-hating.Quote:
Originally posted by Cherry Moon
The American media is a joke. Tonight they were actually cutting to commercials early on MSNBC programs like Scarborough because some guests, including Pat Buchanan, were critical of Israel's disproportionate response against the civilian infrastructure.
interestingly, one will find much more balance and even direct criticism of Israeli foreign policy from Israeli newspapers like Ha'aretz.
It is heartening to hear that your friend's parents have access to information that will permit a more nuanced understanding of the current situation than most receive here. those in the line of fire, i would imagine, have a much better sense of how brutality by one one side of conflict empowers the most brutal urgings on the other...but as Amy Goodmen (of DemocracyNow!) often says in her talks, if people routinely saw unsanitized images of war (hell, we can't even see the flag draped coffins of fallen soldiers anymore), it would be abolished - quickly. of course, the loudest cheerleaders for war in the present administration and in the complicit media - never fought in any wars themselves.
here's a piece (not from Ha'aretz) from a former CIA analyst that speaks to the problems of a national identity based solely upon ethnic or cultural purity:
http://www.counterpunch.org/christison07172006.html
peace...