Well, it's one hell of a mistake. I probably shouldn't, but I have to admit I feel sorry for some of these guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
Well, it's one hell of a mistake. I probably shouldn't, but I have to admit I feel sorry for some of these guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
Kind of disgusting? One mistake? This guy was attempting to have sexual relations with a 13 year old, that's more than minor in my and most peoples opinion. A minor infraction this was not. He interacted with her on-line and then went to the house to meet her, this is obviously not an instance of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hopefully they've caught him before he can ruin his little girls life or any of her friends lives. This guy is a predator and deserves to have his life ruined. :nonono2: :nonono2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
false.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeleHoar
please see:
http://www.perverted-justice.com/
I have children--boys and girls--and I agree with Leory Jenkins's assessment of the TV show (Though LJ did once call me a freak.:the_finge.) To my mind, the show promotes fear and helplessness--something we Americans are indulging in quite a bit these days. There's also a smug self rightousness to it--and shows like "Cops" etc.--that I don't care for. There are indeed evil bastards in this world that need to be avoided. I don't need a TV show to teach me or my children that lesson.
I call bullshit. Would you rather be:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippster
1) Lured into a terrible decision by someone older, smarter, and more manipulative
2) Dead
Our consumer culture has found that it's possible to make heaps of money by sexualizing girls at a younger and younger age -- without preparing them to make the important decisions that go along with sexuality, because that part doesn't make anyone any money. Business is all about growth, and we have successfully made teenage girls into consumers of cosmetics, revealing clothes, perfumes, etc. Just pick up a "teen" magazine while you're waiting in line at the supermarket. Or go see a "teen" movie, in which the actors are usually well into their 20s.
This constant barrage of sexuality is seen by men as well as girls, with the expected effect on both. The men should be old enough to know better and control themselves, but really, what the hell do we expect to happen?
This does not excuse anyone's behavior, which they freely chose knowing the consequences. Just because you see a bicycle unlocked doesn't give you the right to steal it. But if we're going to market the hell out of teen sexuality, we shouldn't be surprised when some men act on it, legal or not.
Unfortunately, addressing this problem is a lot harder than feeding a few people to the lions. It's easy to take a moral stand when it requires no effort beyond sitting on the couch and watching TV, which you were going to do anyway.
I will be the first to admit that I don't have a solution beyond what we're already doing.
Bravo, Spats. That's some quality stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats
The solution (a good part, anyway) is earlier in your post (stop sexualizing girls at a younger and younger age), though it may not be easy to come by. I hasten to add that this does not mean that we shouldn't provide sex education to children and teenagers.
I'm also put off by the easy moralizing in which people often engage on this issue. There's nothing magic about 18. Obviously, some age is too young (though that varies among individuals) and obviously (to me, anyway) age differential is part of the moral calculus (15 and 13? Perhaps not wise, but not creepy. 45 and 13? Creepy.). I even think that, legally, we've got to pick an age and stick with it (though we might add age differential to the legal rule as well - actually, I think it may already be in some places), notwithstanding that YMMV certainly applies in these situations.
Two more cents.
It is beyond this. The girls in these "sting" ops are not just unlocked bicycles they are unlocked bicycles that actively help themselves get stolen. Ok that analogy sucks but what I am trying to say is these "girls" that the "criminals" solicited sex from are actively participating in building this inappropriate relationship. Ultimately as you said the "criminal" should realize this is wrong and not go through with it, just as a person should not steal a bike. But unlike a bike which is just sitting there these "girls" are encouraging an illicit relationship which in most cases probably would not occur with out their encouragement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats
Good post Spats, but to your first post I would argue that depending on the consequences later in life to option 1, option 2 might actually be better.
Unfortunately, option 2 is a very real option sometimes in cases like this. Some of these guys may just be stupid dweebs making bad decisions and looking for a little play with a young girl. Others may have much darker intentions.
Some of these guys could have been like this guy:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289968,00.html
The local news is saying he's a suspect in multiple disappearances of young girls.
As for feeling sympathy for them? Nope. Not here. One of the hallmarks of a respectable person is the ability of that person to make the right decisions. These guys know right from wrong, and they damn well know what they're doing is wrong. A misunderstanding, a girl of 13 who tells someone she's 19, I could understand a guy getting into that situation. But when he knows she's 13 he's made the wrong decision, he knows it, and he should suffer the consequences of his actions. One of those consequences might be having his life publicly ruined on national TV. Guess he should have made better decisions.
Blame the victim - a young, immature, and emotionally needy girl who may really not know what she's getting into or how her actions will affect her in the years to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
Blame the perp - a grown man who, though he may indeed have emotional/mental problems knows what he's doing is wrong and completely inappropriate.
I'm confused, which one makes more sense?
There is such a thing as personal responsibility. More people taking some of it would go a long ways towards fixing problems like this.
I don't think that there could ever be a good argument for option two. You always have a chance to do something to change your situation while you are alive. Even if your going to be miserable for you entire life, which I think is easily avoidable IMO, you still only get ~80 years to live, you have eternity to be dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
Yes, I agree some of these sex criminals are violent deranged people but what I think spats was talking about with the sexualization of teenagers point was that more and more "normal" guys, whose only crime is lacking even a halfway decent amount of self control, could end up in this position. From reading the transcript of Jumpers friend I'm fairly certain he falls into the dweeb category rather than the axe-murderer one, but then again you cant be sure which could be a problem. As for how to separate the losers who make poor decisions and should get, imo, <5 years and some common-sense classes, from those who are truly deranged and who should get, imo again, life, I dont have a clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
To me people who make these decisions are more often than not stupid. They really can't comprehend the consequence of what they are doing, they know its wrong but they cant work out in their head why they shouldnt have sex with a willing female regardless of her age. Do we have the right to fuck with people because they are stupid, something which is no fault of their own?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
Editing in a response to this:
I agree with the personal responsibility thing but why are we always looking to cast blame? And to cast it in one place? But if we are casting blame, I would venture to say that while most of it should land on the perp. Some of the blame belongs to the parents, seriously people if your daughter is getting into this then your doing something wrong. And I also think some blame should go to the girl too. She may not have a full conception of how her actions will affect her later but I would argue that in most cases neither does the perp. And she (the victim) just like the perp does know what she is doing is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
I'm confused. I thought his point was that this is not necessarily an either/or situation and that, in some cases, responsibility may properly be doled out to both parties. I haven't heard anyone arguing for no (or, even, something less than primary) culpability on the part of the grown men, just that there are mitigating considerations that may make them not quite so heinous - and the girls not quite such helpless victims - as it's easy, popular and safe to make them out to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
I also don't buy your characterization of young teenage girls in all cases. I was that age a few decades ago, but even then I knew girls of that age who were much more self-possessed (including sexually) than your characterization would admit. It's more honest and healthier to recognize this. It doesn't mean we have to sanction adults having sex with teens much their junior, just that we should, perhaps, react more appropriately.
Two more cents. Almost change for a nickel.
Phill - are you serious? uhh, dumb question, I guess you are...
"Do we have the right to fuck with people because they are stupid, something which is no fault of their own?"
What the hell are you saying? That just because a person is dumb means they shouldn't suffer the consequences of their actions? Or, are you saying that just because they're stupid we as a society shouldn't try to stop them from engaging in activity that's potentially harmful to others? Or that if we were unsuccessful at stopping them in the first place then we shouldn't actively discourage them from doing it again?
Woodstocksez - Where did I paint all pre-teen and young teen girls with that brush? I would maintain that girls of 12 or 13 who are talking about having sex with older men on the internet and then inviting them to their homes for said activity are indeed confused, immature, and emotionally needy. It sort of goes without saying that since not every girl of that age is engaging in this behavior, they don't all share those characteristics.
I really don't care if the girl "asked for it" or encouraged it in any way. It's wrong, plain and simple. The perps know it's wrong, so bust their perverted asses. The onus is on the person in a position of power and with more life experience to make the right decision here, and the adult male certainly is in that position. If an adult male cannot make the right decisions concerning his actions towards young people for whatever reason, then he needs to suffer the consequences of those actions. Making excuses for him, blaming society or his stupidity or whatever only encourages more of this.
I don't know that the first part is always true, but even if it is, that's not the only way these kinds of encounters can take place. When I was a kid (long before the Internet), there were rumors of liasons between young teen girls and the "hip" high school science teacher. True or not, I don't know for sure. But, knowing the teacher some (both through personal observation and via others), I'd say he wasn't really a creep or a predator. Knowing the girls some, as well, I'd say they weren't confused, immature and emotionally needy, just emotionally and sexually precocious. I am not contending the relationships (assuming they did occur) were proper, just that it wasn't really a case of a wolf preying on helpless sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
false again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phill
please see http://www.perverted-justice.com/ and read some of the transcripts.
i think you'll find that they do a pretty bang-up job of avoiding entrapment, which is what i think you're accusing these volunteers of. by the way, a lot of the volunteers are grown men who have no interest in "encouraging" illicit relationships a la nabokov's lolita.
I believe Phill was questioning our right to put the "stupid people" on public display simply because of their stupidity, not the fact that child molesters belong in jail. While we certainly have the right, it is pretty indicitive of the insecuriteis we as a society seem to have developed. If the show was as simple as just "fucking with stupid people," it would be akin to a show poking fun at retarded people. You can't blame people for a lack of inteligence. It isn't my fault I don't understand quantom physics, and it isn't a retarded persons fault he can't tie his shoe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
However, pedophiles do understand that what they are doing is wrong. They may not understand the complexities of how emotional damage is inflicted on a developing brain, but they know it's wrong, they know it's ilegal, and they do it anyways. Pedophiles suffer from mental disease illness of some sort, no doubt, and that is NOT their fault. The fact is, most pedophiles are pedophiles because they were molested, or worse, as a child themselves. While they are certainly not responsible for their urges, they absolutely must be held responsible for their actions. I have all the respect in the world for someone that has a mental disorder and does what is required to fix the problem. Their are doctors out there that specialize in treating pedophiles, cures are out there. If someone has a problem that can only hurt other people and they do nothing about it, they deserve to fry.
there are? last i checked, even castration wasn't considered a "cure."Quote:
Originally Posted by PaSucks
do you know something i don't?
A lifetime of counseling and psychiatric therapy, combined with proper medication to treat depression, anxiety, whatever else the person may be suffering from. "Cure" may not be the best way, but the point was that mental illness is treatable and that nobody should be ashamed to get help before they hurt someone. It is possible to avoid being a piece of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13
Next on TGR...
Dress your underage daughters in Burkas, because grown men might think they are sexy and try to seduce them on the internet.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...fghanistan.jpg
PaSucks - Re: your post @ 6:47 - I believe we are in agreement. I hope that's indeed what Phill was trying to say, it's only too bad he couldn't actually say it. Or maybe we're wrong. Phill?
Only one point of contention I have with what you wrote, and what others have said about the nature of the TV show in question: I believe that if this show opens the eyes of one parent or child to the possibilities and thus averts a situation like this, then I feel it's worth it.
I should note that such is not normally my position on things. I just tend to feel protective of children and if we go a little overboard to keep them safe, that's okay with me.
bklyn - I was thinking that exact same thing myself, the way some people talk.
Burkas are hot! I'm going to seduce that woman!Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn
While I agree that it may help awaken parents to the perils facing their children, and that is a good thing, the shows true intent is to shock and entertain. I don't blame them for it, they are a business and obviously a sucesful one.Quote:
Only one point of contention I have with what you wrote, and what others have said about the nature of the TV show in question: I believe that if this show opens the eyes of one parent or child to the possibilities and thus averts a situation like this, then I feel it's worth it.
Not me. If I have a daughter, I'm making sure she's in a thong bikini by the time she's ten. Never too early, I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by bklyn
I wouldn't argue that. TV sucks, in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaSucks
I was watching it the other night and they showed a transcript of one fella, and it said something like "im in ur hottub giving you anal".
And I thought to myself... wow, jer really is an internet perv.
I cant condone adults sleeping with kids...but I agree with the making a spectacle of them.
The people on the show are sick...its a mental sickness....
...lets throw skin cancer patients up on tv and call them leather face and make fun of them for not using sun tan lotion.
Some shows make me sick purely because of why they are popular. Lets put the guy who lost his legs in a car accident in the town pool and see what happens...
Aw fuck that, I started donig drugs around that age, and no one coerced, or even encouraged me to do so. Maybe its just because thats the age when kids usually start trying to break away from your parents control and expeiriance things on your own. Somehow it is viewed as acceptable for high schoolers to fuck each other as much as they want, but a 19 year old with a 15 year old is a "monster". I think its a bit weird, and not really my cup of tea, but I'd hardly call that monstrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainsaw_Willie
Our culture is so hung up on sex. As a culture, we're obsessed with it. Getting laid by some random person you have no emotional attachment to is supposed to be like the coolest thing ever and the meaning of life. Like it or not, the media portrays YOUNG girls as sex symbols, yet everyone acts like they don't notice. Its the whole giant pink elephant in the room and no one will talk about it thing.
Thats why people watch these shows, is because they're obsessed with sex, and they enjoy witnessing public humiliation. It disgusts me.
You ever considered a career as a TV producer?Quote:
Originally Posted by japollner
Super serial.